Christine the Lioness (3118)
Christopher the Pyro (1985)
ProphetJoe the Irreverent (1216)
Trouble the Pirate (592)
Keith the Director (573)
Mara the Peacemaker (527)
eric the Lil' Devil (351)
AJ the Zen Master (305)
Ben the Kingpin (213)
Haas the Addict (187)
Christine 2 the Mercenary (131) Lei the Mercenary (124) Katie the Mercenary (115)
Ben2 the Soldier (56) Christine the Lioness got all philosophical
Is this the 400-lb woman that everyone is talking about who didn’t know she was pregnant until a few days before she gave birth? That might be a different story.
I’m not sure I understand this. If one doctor failed to detect her pregnancy, why did she schedule an abortion? Unless she had the abortion and then thought she might still be pregnant so she went to a different doctor who said she wasn’t. I’m not sure I get how that all went down.
But anyway…
I gotta agree with Christopher on this one. She probably has a case to sue for the cost of delivering the child, but of rearing it??? If she was comfortable with getting an abortion in the first place, it’s hard to say you’re not comfortable with giving the baby up for adoption.
The fact she didn’t know she was pregnant– and you hear of these stories popping up every once in a while– I actually knew a girl that I found out later this same thing happened to… she went to the doctor with a stomach ache and literally gave birth. I honestly don’t know how that can happen, but I can’t talk because I’ve never been pregnant, so I don’t really know. I would imagine though… that these people are somewhat unhealthy to begin with because healthy, fit women, who don’t have any medical conditions, would question not getting their period for a month or two. If the baby were healthy and growing normally, they’d also start to show at about the 4th month, so they’d realize they look pregnant. Many women also experience morning sickness, so the onset of that would also be a tip off. You have to wonder if some of these who don’t realize they’re pregnant maybe have some sort of mental problem or serious physical health problems.
This however, is just someone trying to get attention. Besides, as everyone knows, suing a non-profit organization is ridiculous because… yes, you guessed it… they don’t make profits for you to file a judgment against. Just like any doctor, I’m sure this doctor’s malpractice insurance will handle this, but I hope this is not another case of someone who is trying to bilk the system and get something for free, and is actually awarded compensation. Based on the little I read about this above, it seems like she’s only keeping the child– not because she wants one– but because she wants to see if she can get her living expenses paid for for the rest of her life… and that is the most troubling part of this whole thing. That a child could be born and raised by a mother who wants it for that reason alone.
Scott Hughes the Virgin thought this
Regardless of how one feels about abortion, this is clear-cut malpractice. The doctor has to pay for the costs resulting thereof, which in this case are the expensive costs of raising the girl.
Christopher the Pyro mentioned
clear-cut malpractice? umm.. like i said even if it is true.. what is stopping this woman who obviously didn’t want a baby from giving it away.
Scott Hughes the Virgin mentioned
Nothing’s stopping this woman from stabbing a kitchen knife into her own throat. It doesn’t mean she has any legal obligation to do it. Because it was malpractice, the doctor is financially liable for any costs incurred as a result of malpractice, which in this case is an expensive child.
Additionally, the reason the mother wanted an abortion was because she couldn’t afford a child. Now, everybody wins. The girl gets born and cared for. The woman gets to keep her child. And, some incompetent doctor has to pay for his malpractice.
…assuming she wins the case and her story is true.
Vicki the Groupie mentioned
I can’t believe what I am hearing. Lets get this straight, the woman did not want her child, she was trying to kill the baby. Now she wants to sue the doctor(s) because they did not successfully kill her baby (apparently Jesus had other plans for this child).
What about adoption. Raper made it clear she did not want the child for financial reasons, but she has been raising the child for two years now.
Sounds like a get rich quick scheme to me. I hope she losses the case. Even if she wins the case, her little girl will one day find out her mother did not want her and tried to sue the doctors who did not kill her.
How pathetic and sad!
Christine the Lioness scribbled
I understand that this woman wanted an abortion and should have gotten one. But Scott… how can you possibly quantify what the doctors should have to pay to shoulder the cost of raising this child? If the Mom wants to buy the kid a Wii, does she go to court and get only approval for an X-box??? What if she wants to put the kid in private school? Will she only get approval for public education? Will this be like child support payments where the mom can monitor the doctors’ incomes and go back to court whenever she feels her child should be getting more? Where’s the father in all this and his accountability? Since he’s the one who is half responsible for creating the child in the first place, shouldn’t HE be paying to raise it? I’m guessing his pockets aren’t quite as deep as those belonging to the doctors… which is why there’s no mention of her suing him for child support.
Christopher the Pyro quibbed this
However you didn’t want her to consult the father when she decided to try and get rid of the baby.. that is none of his business right…
Christine the Lioness spake, and sayeth
Well, considering he isn’t in the picture and obviously isn’t helping to raise the child, and the reason she felt she needed to get an abortion to begin with was because she (as in one person, not “we” as in the baby’s father and myself) felt like she couldn’t afford it, it appears he decided to make a baby and then skip out (which is not particularly uncommon), leaving the woman to deal with it on her own.
I’m not convinced that a guy has a right to tell a woman to have his baby and then just bail after she has one… or to tell her that she has to have an abortion because he doesn’t want to pay for a baby. He should have considered the possibility of her getting pregnant before he stuck his dick in her.
If this woman did consult the father, and he said that he wanted her to have the baby and he wanted to help raise it, then he would probably be mentioned by this point. If she consulted him and he told her to get an abortion, and the abortion was botched, it’s still his responsibility to help raise the child, not the doctor’s.
Time to start making men accountable for getting women pregnant.
Christopher the Pyro scribbled
That is fine if you allow them veto power over the abortion. You want some “man” to be accountable in this situation and he really has 0 power over any of it. Give him some power and I’ll play the accountability game… otherwise.. he has none.
Vicki the Groupie said this
First of all I don’t agree with abortion. I think women and men both need to consider the consequences before they have sex. It is NO mystery where babies come from.
Yes, there are men who skip out on their children, but their are women who do the same. I have known several men who have been forced out of their child’s life because of the mother. The court system needs to make it an even playing field and give fathers the same rights as the mothers have. Women have taken advantage of these type of situations long enough. Women need to STOP using their children to get even or pay back their ex’s.
Men have no say in an abortion. Everyone yells it is a woman’s right to have an abortion, but isn’t it the man’s right to keep his child alive? I find it abortion a double standard. The unborn child is consider a baby when the child is wanted, but when the child is not wanted it is considered tissue or whatever the pro-choice side wants to call the baby.
Christopher the Pyro pontificated
I do agree that each parent has equal rights to the child, it is irrelivant what has happened prior ( if most fathers leave their wives that does not make it ok to make it only the mothers right because their are fathers who care very much about the their child to be ) Lucky for us most fathers do no leave the wife so this shouldn’t even be this big of an issue it is common sense that it should require both parents signing off on it, or at least one signing off and the other not voting. For example of the mother doesn’t want the baby and the father is indifferent or leaves then that is one thing, but if the mom and dad are in disagreement that is a real issue and every effort should be made to the baby in mind.. I mean afterall there is at least one parent who does want the child.
Christine the Lioness asserted
In a perfect world, all babies would be conceived by two stable parents who not only love each other, but want to bring a baby into the world and make the sacrifices parents make to raise a child. But guess what… we’re not in a perfect world. You can say that men should have a say in whether a woman can abort their child, but what happens when they say she can’t have an abortion and then a year later they don’t want to have anything to do with the baby and she’s stuck with it? In a perfect world, men and women don’t ever just bail on their families and leave the children with the other one. But again, not a perfect world.
I feel for the men who want a baby but don’t have a say because the woman decides to terminate the pregnancy, but I think there are many more women who get pregnant and then the guy decides he doesn’t want to be a part of raising the kid. In reality, whether you want to believe it or not, there are simply more men that bail than women.
Despite the fact that there is a group of people who are getting shafted (guys who want to keep the babies when the women don’t), we can’t take a woman’s right over her own body and give it to men to help that small group of men who want the child. It would open a door for men who don’t really like a woman to force her to have a child he knows she doesn’t want to have just for spite and then leave her. That could happen. And what if the woman doesn’t know who the father is? Does she just randomly pick one and say he’s the father?
There are a lot of things that go along with being pregnant: lost work time, physical complications that women will have for the rest of their lives including back injuries, incontinence, problems with a breach baby, etc, etc. All things that men will not experience because they don’t get pregnant. Since the pregnancy is about the woman, it has to be the woman’s choice until the child is born.
And again, to force a woman to have a baby she doesn’t want– do you really think that woman will try to have a healthy pregnancy? Or will she do things that put the baby at risk?
People should only have children if they want to have children. And if it’s important to a man that if he gets a woman pregnant, that she would choose to have the baby, then that’s something he should talk to her about and consider before choosing a partner to sleep with, knowing that it will ultimately be her decision.
Again, I feel for those men that want to have the child when the mother wants to terminate it, but we can’t create a whole host of other problems just to try to prevent something unfair from happening to the minority. Life isn’t always fair.
Christine the Lioness got all philosophical
Oh by the way… to address Christopher’s earlier comment… the man is accountable as soon as the baby is created. Women don’t create babies on their own.
And giving a man “veto” power over an abortion is essentially saying his desire outweighs her’s. They don’t even weigh in equally. Christopher is saying that the male desire is more important than the woman’s despite the fact that she is the one that will have to be pregnant and birth the child. That alone, in my opinion, makes her desire the more relevant one. Thank God we don’t live in a society where men can control women like that.
Here is another example of why the male “veto” power on abortion can cause other problems. One of my friends was in a bad marriage and getting ready to leave her husband when she found out she was pregnant. She wanted to get an abortion and he literally said to her, “No, because then you’ll leave. If you’re pregnant, you’ll have to stay with me because I know you can’t raise two kids on your own.” They already had one kid. So he was essentially, not wanting her to have the baby because he wanted to be this fabulous father (trust me, he was not a good dad to the first one, nor was he a good husband). He was using his right (in the state they lived in) to keep her under his thumb. That situation is a byproduct of allowing men to “veto” abortions.
Christopher the Pyro said this
Your opinions on there being more husbands who leave are being based strictly on anecdotal evidence. I think when it come to human life we should strive to be a little more human here, after all we are talking about a baby.
I also think that generally speaking when we are talking about a real couple that the woman gave up a lot of rights when she choose to have sex with someone, and now after the fact she is deciding to kill a baby.. even if the man wants the baby that seems harsh. It certainly seems like we are not holding women accountable for their own actions, I do not think all the theoretical reasons why Veto power might be abused justify murdering babies. I’m not saying that the male desire is more important than the woman’s, but I do think it is equal and I think the man and woman went into sex equally knowing what the results are and with that knowledge it is important to hold normal couples responsible for their actions. Women want men to be held responsible for a lot of things, child support, alimony, ect I think it is time that women also give a little and meet half way. Will there be abuses in the system, yes but there are always abuses, right now there are abuses with women having babies so they can get money out of men and that is very common so I don’t think we can fix this system by saying oh this way will or won’t be abused, they will all be abused maybe we should focus on being good people.
Vicki the Groupie up'n wrote this
Here is a scenerio:
*Woman knows if she has sex she is a taking a chance of getting pregnate.
*Woman has sex! ——— OH NO woman is now pregnate
*Woman decides to kill her unborn child —- so she does not have to take responsiblity for her actions
*Her child is no DEAD!! and she is SO HAPPY that she can live her life the way she wants.
Sounds a little sick doesn’t it? In reality this is usually what happens. When a woman gets pregnate, her body is no longer only hers, it is also her babies body.
The baby needs to the mother to survive.
As far as the man having veto power, well here is a solution of that. MAKE ABORTION ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! That solves the whole problem
As far as men running away from their children…..well yes you will always have some who do not care……..but shouldn’t the mother chose her man a little better?
I know serveral men who have been forced out of their child’s lives because the mother using child support against them. Do you mothers really think the children care about the money, no they don’t…….but mommy sure does. She may need her hair or nails done. I see these type of things all the time. The child support does not go to the children…..it goes for mommy’s wants.
I have two children and did not receive child support for many many years (no I did NOT take him to court to get it). He could not afford it at the time, but I always wanted my children to have a relationship with their father. Money was not the issue. The bond between children and their father is the issue.
To all the women (and you know who you are) stop using you kids!!
To all the pro-choice people —- STOP KILLING BABIES — here is a website for the pro choice people to look at (if you have the guts and the stomach for it). This will show all of you what you are doing to these babies. Did you know that a baby at 9 weeks looks like a person. http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosbyage/index2.htm#thumbnails
I could not sleep at night knowing that I was behind abortion.
Christopher the Pyro hunt n' pecked this
While I agree that abortion is clearly murder. I also think that murder has been and always will be somewhat acceptable in society and there is a valid argument that abortion is good for society. One benefit for society is less babies that people don’t care about being around. That being said, I do not think a “woman’s right” is justification for abortion, that is as bad as a “husbands right” to beat his wife.
However, I still feel that in 100 years abortion will simply be viewed as something that barbaric societies did, I just don’t think we have the ability to have perspective on it as a whole, and people on both sides of this issue don’t have perspective ( including myself, and I try and see it from both sides ). If we want to break it down into simple truths. Abortion is murder, murder in this case can be good for society. Murder is always bad for the person being murdered. Maybe the bigger question is… Is murder bad?
Christine the Lioness chimed in with
I find it interesting, Vicky, that you are so critical of other peoples’ choices.
The most disturbing thing you stated in your post, among the many I found disturbing, is “*Woman decides to kill her unborn child —- so she does not have to take responsiblity for her actions”. The day we, as a society, are comfortable with bringing children into this world simply to teach a woman responsibility, is a sad day. Children should never be looked at as “punishments” for having unprotected sex. Talk about using children…
Vicki the Groupie quibbed this
Christine you find what I said disturbing????? Awe I am so sorry I offended you.
I guess I would be offended to if I believed it was okay for women to have a defenseless child limbs sucked out of her or have the womb injected with a solution that burns the child.
Have you ever heard of adoption? Apparently not! The fact to the whole abortion issue, women want to go have sex and think of the consequences later. If a woman does not want a child……don’t have sex! It is not a difficult of a concept to understand.
ABORTION is MURDER! People treat their dogs better than pro-choice supporters treat babies
Here is are two questions for you Christine.
#1 If I am drinking and driving and I have a wreck and kill a woman’s unborn child (not the mother), should I be charged with murder or manslaughter?
#2 Do you believe in God? (I’m sure you know I do, but God is not why I am against abortion.)
Women who have abortions and who support abortions are very cruel and heartless. They are allowing millions of babies to be slaughtered like cattle.
If I had to rate crimes against children
1 - 5 (1 being the worst crime).
I would have to rate woman who have abortions #1 and child molesters #2
Christine the Lioness said this
Don’t be sorry, Vicki. I wasn’t offended by anything you said, just disturbed that you as a mother feel the way you do…
And your second comment leaves me even more disturbed. Particularly the part about men (or women) molesting children being more palatable than women who choose to have abortions.
Vicki the Groupie hunt n' pecked this
Christine,
First you need to reread my comment about offending you, because I am not sorry for my beliefs on abortion.
Would you rather a person kill a child or molest them? Women who have abortions are KILLING children. People who molest children are hurting them….a huge difference. The molested chlildren can still grow up and live happy normal lives (I know from experience). The chidlren that are KILLED by their mothers have no opportunities. They are dead. That is my point.
Do you not think that the choice of a woman begins when she lays down to have sex? That is her choice, not murder. Maybe every woman who believes in abortion needs to treated as the aborted babies were treated. Lets tear their limbs off or burn them with solution. We even execute killers in a more humane way than mothers abort babies.
Eddie the Virgin uttered
A pregnancy happens due to two people: a man and a woman. Both of whom took the pleasure of laying down and having sex. It is no mystery how a child is conceived. There is no reason to say “oops” by the man or the woman after the child is conceived. Both knew it could happen and therefore should live with the consequences. This is not a biblical issue nor is it a choice issue. This is an issue of a person being sick, selfish, irresponsible, and wanting to get rid of the consequence (the child) when that person knew it could happen. It is such a selfish act that it falls below animal instincts. Yes its your body, and if you had the sense to know how your body works, then you would know you can get PREGNANT from having sex. Sex and pregnancy can be understood by even a 10 year old so there is no good excuse. If you don’t want the consequence of an action, then don’t take that action. It is very simple, there is nothing to argue, and the bottom line is TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS, unless your still a child. And please, don’t blame it on anyone else, including your partner, because you knew the consequence as much as he did. GROW UP!
Christopher the Pyro mentioned
Vicki,
I do not think anybody wants you to be sorry for your belief on abortion. First the tone of the last two posts are completely inappropriate and seem to imply that Christine somehow is irresponsible, so let me straighten a couple of things out here, Christine is by far the most responsible women I’ve ever known on this subject, she simply takes every possible step to avoid ever being faced abortion she can, she does think that people should give the child up for adoption over abortion. She is far more compassionate then me on 95% of all subjects and her support for abortion rights come from two possibly flawed social theories, ( abortion rights for women, empower women and babies brought into this world that are unwanted are worst off then if they were just aborted ) not from her being in anyway a bad person. These ideas themselves have many power people behind them because their whole organization requires them to be true and they are a flash point for contributions, so it is not hard to find support for them and while I do think they are flawed beliefs that mislead, I do not think Christine is a flawed person. Christine does believe in God which is irrelevant because last time I checked religious people abort a far higher % of babies then non-religious people.
All this stuff being said, you have some valid points, we do abort babies in horrible and inhumane ways, the whole culture of abortion is sick and twisted in itself. However Christine is right we shouldn’t punish women for becoming pregnant, but we shouldn’t punish unborn children either. If someone shoots me in the back of the head as I’m driving down the freeway and I die, I didn’t know it was coming and I likely didn’t know it was happening, that doesn’t make it better then if they shot me in the face. I’m still dead, which is the ultimate punishment. Despite what you think, making abortion illegal is not an easy solution and will not “fix” the problem.
Christine the Lioness spake, and sayeth
First, Vicki, sweetie, YOU need to reread what I said. I know you were being sarcastic in your apology for offending me. I was simply saying in a more tactful way… that your position doesn’t offend me. It simply disturbs me. Please read the words I say instead of putting them in my mouth for me (example, apologizing for offending me when I clearly never stated I was offended).
I agree with Christopher’s assessment that the tone of the last two comments are inappropriate. They were intended to attack me as a person because I don’t agree with you. Personally, I don’t find that strategy of trying to make an argument very compelling, and if people dismiss your points based on the fact that you are coming to the table with a completely emotional argument and calling names, then you have created that situation for yourself.
I, like most, would love for there to be less abortions. I would love to see a day where there are no more abortions– not because the government has decided that they can no longer happen– but because people who don’t want children, aren’t getting pregnant. I simply don’t think illegalizing abortion will fix the problem. It will fix one problem– which is it will stop a significant number of “unwanted” babies from dying (I say significant number because people will still have illegal abortions like they did prior to 1973). But it will cause many other societal problems.
For me, I think the main problem here– or at least the cause of several problems including, but not limited to, abortion is… that our culture perpetuates and glorifies people having irresponsible sex. Our culture promotes irresponsibility and unaccountability in many facets– with personal financial spending, in the workplace, in relationships with significant others, with our bodies, with sex for sure. We live in a culture that promotes abusing your own body by stuffing it with fatty fast food and then being surprised that we as a culture are overweight. We advocate getting lines of credit to purchase things we can’t afford. Our pop culture advocates going out and fucking the hottest person you can find… or getting rich so you can get laid more… as a culture, we glorify all the things that create a situation conducive to the conception of unwanted babies.
I think we, as a society, need to start at the roots and examine why people are having unprotected sex when like you have all said, a 10 year old knows that pregnancy can happen.
I spent some time working with abused and neglected children, and I can tell you first hand that people who do not want children should not be forced to be parents. The things some of these kids go through are horrific. I don’t think it is good for society for those things to be happening, nor is it good for the individual child enduring the abuse for years because it is incredibly difficult to have a child removed from its biological parents’ home. The only people who should be having babies are those who want to bring them into loving homes.
I am a huge advocate of adoption and I have friends who have gotten pregnant and given their babies up for adoption. But that is not a simple, perfect solution either. I also have friends who were adopted as babies. While I feel it’s a better alternative than having an abortion, people who try to portray it as the cleanest, perfect choice have obviously not been exposed to issues that come up regarding adoption.
The perfect solution is to not get pregnant when you don’t want to be pregnant. Plain and simple. So instead of coming to a blog and calling names, and telling people that you don’t know a thing about how immoral they are, maybe our time would be better spent in looking at WHY these unwanted pregnancies are happening and helping to come up with solutions to fixing that problem instead of telling women who become pregnant that they are stupid if they didn’t realize it could happen.
Vicki the Groupie pontificated
First, Christopher you said Christine believes in God right? If she believes in God then how can she say it is okay if a woman has an abortion? I guess she has a different God than I do. My God says “THOU SHALL NOT KILL” Chirstians who support abortion are not Christians, they are hypocrites
Second, my tone is telling the truth about abortion. Those who don’t like my tone, don’t want to hear the truth about abortion. Whoever supports abortion is an inhumane person. How can one call themself humane if they support killing babies?
It is not society’s fault that people are having unprotected sex and being irresponsible when it comes to sex. It is the people involved. We are all adults and we all know where babies come from. The fact is that people who do these things don’t care about the consequences until it is to late. Then they are ready to run to the nearest abortion clinic and kill the baby. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and need to step up to the plate and take responsiblity.
Why shouldn’t we punish woman who have abortions? If I commit a crime I get punsihed. Thats right killing babies is not illegal.
As far as unwanted children growing up in a bad home…..children grow up in bad homes for many other reasons than abortion. I understand there is good and bad that goes along with adoption, just like every thing else in this world.
Eddie the Virgin up'n wrote this
Christine,
You say our culture perpetuates and glorifies people having irresponsible sex, our culture promotes irresponsibility and unaccountability in many facets, our culture promotes abusing your own body by stuffing it with fatty fast food, our pop culture advocates going out and fucking the hottest person you can find, and last but not least we glorify all the things that create a situation conducive to the conception of unwanted babies, but let me ask you this! If our culture perpetuated jumping off a bluff would you do it? I don’t like bringing religion in debates, but it seems God gave us all a conscience to make the right decisions no matter what is going on around us. I have always believed that everyone is accountable for their own actions and the blame can not, nor will not, be blamed on anything but yourself when judgment day comes. Yes, our culture is going to hell in a hand basket very fast, but there are those who believe in a higher power that will hold to their beliefs and and there are the weak at heart who will go astray and follow anyone or anything. I don’t have to study abortion to know its wrong. I have a gut feeling that tells me it is wrong. We all have a conscious that deep inside tells us we are doing wrong, but since society accepts it, we do it anyway. I am not perfect by no means, and I don’t expect anyone else to be perfect either, but it would be nice if people would listen to their conscious and when it is telling you deep inside that your wrong, then just don’t do it. And even better don’t advocate it, because thats even worse.
Christopher the Pyro added
Bringing religion into a conversation is pointless, because it takes away from the main conversation. Vicki you will never convince anybody by attacking them, and you also need to be realistic about your expectations. While I agree with some points, I also disagree with others.
One thing I do know is that we shouldn’t take the word of God too serious after all all the documentation from God was written by people and most of it thousands of years ago. If god decided to give a speach to the world it would change a lot of opinions. However since we need to depend on ancient texts we need to think twice about that.
Christine the Lioness added
Just like God wants Christians to choose to believe in Jesus Christ as their savior, and therefore gives the individual the choice to make that decision and be saved, we cannot make people choose to do what we believe in our own heart is right. If God forced everyone to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior, and took the choice away, there would be no point to making the right decision, would there?
The truth is, not everyone believes that abortion is murder. Just like not everyone believes that killing another human being in war, under the guise of the death penalty, in self-defense, under situations involving euthanasia, etc. are murder. Murder is actually a “legal” term. Abortion, technically, is not murder because abortion is not illegal. Vicky, you like using the term “murder” erroneously for affect , but the use of that word is actually not correct.
Just because someone advocates abortion does not mean they would have one themselves either. But those who wouldn’t have one, yet advocate freedom of choice, are seeing that making it illegal causes other problems.
Some women who have abortions are Christian. Whether Vicky wants them to be or not, they are. And there are also Christians that lie, that covet thy neighbor’s house, that steal, that use the Lord’s name in vain, and who don’t go to church on the Sabbath. If breaking a commandment suddenly stripped them of being a Christian, the Christians would be a very small club indeed. As a matter of fact, I’d venture to say that no one could call themselves Christians.
I agree with Christopher that bringing religion into this argument is pointless, since everyone comes from different religious beliefs, and Vicky’s personal religious beliefs are nothing more than a guide for how Vicky should live her life, and are certainly not indicative of what laws should exist or shouldn’t.
Vicky, you are very caught up in your passionate beliefs, but I think you should take the advice Christopher and I have been trying to give you. Your method of debating this is actually counterproductive to what you are trying to do (which I assume is to get people to agree with you). Name calling and accusations and personal attacks on people you don’t know is not a very well thought out persuasion technique.
Christopher and I both enjoy the debates we have with other people– and between ourselves on this blog– and there have been times where we’ve altered our positions or changed our thinking completely based on a sound, reasonable argument. We are suggesting you would have more success if you took out all the things out of your approach that put people off, and actually appeal to their sense of logic. It’s just our advice, take it or leave it.
To Eddy… you suggested we all have a conscience deep inside of us that tells us what is right and what is wrong. The way you said that suggests that this is some sort of universal conscience. If that were the case, then every society throughout history would have perceived morality the exact same way as you do. And every culture throughout the current world would perceive morality the exact same way that you do. And everyone within the U.S. would perceive morality the exact same way that you do. That is simply not the case. There are people who are comfortable with abortion, and there are those that aren’t. There are people who are comfortable with the death penalty, and those who are not. People do have different perspectives on what is moral and what isn’t, even if you would like to believe that if everyone would just look deep enough within themselves they’d come up with the same sense of morality you have.
Eddie the Virgin remarked
Christine and Christopher,
If you both believe that cramming something up inside a human being and taking the life out of an unborn child is alright then religion doesn’t matter anyway. Rather anyone believes in religion or not is really not the issue. You have your opinion and I have mine. As for me I think that any human being that can honestly say that stripping the life out of another human being is alright needs some mental help. So carry on, but you will be accountable some day, this I know. Good Day!
Vicki the Groupie pontificated
Christoper and Christine
You two seem to think religion is behind my belief on abortion. Well it is not, it is common sense. Common sense tell us not to do things that will hurt another human but if the government makes it legal than pro-choice supporters thinks it is okay. WRONG! We have few people sitting on the Surpreme Court bench saying it is okay. What makes them right? Nothing.
I will tell what the problem is. Irresponsible woman. Do you really think that giving a woman the choice to have an abortion empowers her? Women who make good decisions are empowered, not the ones who run to the nearest abortion clinic when they get pregnate. They are cowards and selfish.
This country has double standards. If an unborn child is killed due to a wreck, the driver at fault will probably face criminal charges, even if the woman was on her way to have an abortion?
People who support abortion give women in general a bad name. We are suppose to live in a civilized society, but many woman have become barbaric.
I find it very disturbing that people raise hell because someone molest a child (which is terrible and they should be punished), but a woman can kill her own child and she receives a pat on the back.
You are right about a one thing, abortion will never go away, because of people like you who believe it is a woman’s choice. I hope and pray one day that our government will stop abortion all together. If a woman has an abortion she should spend the rest of of life in prison.
Pro choice supporters also say that there will more back alley abortions, well if woman are stupid enough to do that, then it is their fault if something happens.
Eddie is right! You and all the others who believe as you do will answer for their actions one day. All I can say is I hope I am not standing next to you when you do.
Oh, yes I know Christians cheat, steal, lie, and kill, but they are also wrong. Everyone makes mistakes, but God expects you to learn from your mistakes and not to keep making the same mistakes. He does forgive! No one on this Earth is without sin!!!!!! Some of us try really hard to do the right thing, but we still make mistakes.
Mara the Peacemaker penned this
Well haven’t courts allowed wrongful birth suits before such as in cases of botched vasectomies, prescribing placebos instead of birth control pills, etc?
Mara the Peacemaker hunt n' pecked this
“Irresponsible woman.”
Apparently women become pregnant all on their own. Apparently there aren’t any irresponsible men running around.
“Do you really think that giving a woman the choice to have an abortion empowers her? Women who make good decisions are empowered, not the ones who run to the nearest abortion clinic when they get pregnate.”
Well, obviously this depends on your definition of empowerment. I think women are empowered when they are able to embrace their autonomy and make decisions for themselves without parternalistic oversight and that INCLUDES the power to make what you view as “wrong decisions.”
“You and all the others who believe as you do will answer for their actions one day. ”
Wishful thinking.
Christine the Lioness thought this
Mara… to answer your question… I am not sure what the outcome of other wrongful birth suits have been. I was not aware of cases of botched vasectomies, etc. but I think those cases would probably play a role as a precedent for this type of a case. I am interested to see how this plays out in court.
Vicki the Groupie commented
Mara,
I do not hear men yelling for abortion rights. The woman says it is their right to have an abortion, and as we know men do not have any say in whether his child is killed. So I think the irresponsible man issue is already dead in the water. Now if men had a say in abortion it would be a different story.
As far as cases similar to the this blog, there has been a couple of of woman who have won their cases on botched abortions.
Apparently you do not believe in God, and that is your choice, but those who believe and support abortion will answer for their actions.
Christopher the Pyro pontificated
Eddie,
Vicki and yourself introduced religion I’m happy to argue the merits of abortion or not having abortion without religion… the fact that your telling me or anybody else they will pay for their beliefs suggests you are not willing to argue without the religion card.
ALL that being said, clearly I feel that aborting a baby is wrong regardless of how it is done, and I have never felt this is a “woman’s right” issues. I have always felt women feel that the “abortion” issue gives them a bit of power, however misguided that power might be. It is a battle in the overall war for equality in their mind, and certainly each battle is important.
Just a quick question but Vicki, do you know eddie personally?
Vicki the Groupie hunt n' pecked this
Christopher,
No I do not know Eddie, and why? Should I?
Abortion without religion…….Okay plain in simple, black and white…..IT IS WRONG!
It is legal murder, no matter how you look at. You are right that women feel the abortion issue gives them power. The wrong kind of power though. I guess in their minds it takes a big powerful person to kill an innocent child.
Mara the Peacemaker uttered
Christine,
I’m interested as well. I did read about a case some years ago where a pharmacist was sued for wrongful birth. He didn’t believe in birth control so he dispensed placebo pills to the woman instead. Unfortunately, I don’t remember the outcome of the case. The portion I read had to do with proving damages as opposed to whether the woman had a legitimate claim.
Mara the Peacemaker hunt n' pecked this
Vicki,
“I do not hear men yelling for abortion rights.”
Firstly, the fact that men aren’t yelling for abortion rights (and quite frankly some of them are since abortion benefits men in a lot of ways more than it does women) does not mean that women are solely to blame for abortion. Some women have abortions BECAUSE men are not responsible. The plight of the single and impoverished mother is very real. To cast blame or responsibility solely on women because they are demanding abortion rights is naive and disingenuous.
“Apparently you do not believe in God, and that is your choice, but those who believe and support abortion will answer for their actions.”
Then you would also know that your religious pronouncements of judgment mean nothing.
vicki the Groupie added
Mara,
I guess if a man tells a woman to jump off a bridge, she’ll do it then huh. You know and I know some men and women are irresponsible. That is no mystery. The thing is a woman can say no to sex. It takes two to tango, not one. Also, women know if they have sex they can get pregnant. To put it plan and simple, a woman makes her choice when she lays down and spread her legs. There is birth control. Please do not even tell me that birth control does not work. It does, and yes sometimes it fails. The failure rate of birth control does not even come close to the number of babies killed everyday. So you have no grounds to argue that. If it were to be (its not), Women have to know in the back of their minds that they may still get pregnant on birth control. We do not live in the stone age anymore.
Being single and poor gives no one the right to kill a child. Women make many of their own decisons and that is great, but when an unwanted pregnancy arises, women take the easy way out. Raising a child is no easy task, but it can be done.
My children were not planned and I was a single mother for many years. Yes it was a scary road and still is at times, but we get through. Yes thoughts do run through your mind about many things concerning raising children, but women do it everyday. I
For the men who support abortion, they are no better than the women who do. Women seem to want their cake and eat it too. They want to have sex, and abortion. Look at where babies come from. SEX!
Believe me I know women who support abortion will rarely back down. It is a sad thing though. The women whose case legalized abortion now advocates against it. I find it repulsive to think anyone supports killing a child. Since you support killing children, why don’t you advocate to release all the child killers out of prison. They too killed children. You also play a part in killing children because you believe in abortion. How can you sleep at night? Have you not ever looked at pictures of abortion? Take a close look at the little fingers and toes. It is not a blob of tissue. It is clearly a human that someone is killed.
Christopher the Pyro pontificated
Vicki - Thou shall now lie, when you asked if you and Eddie should know each other. I would think you should, considering you share and IP address ( unique identifier of where your writing from ). For example if you are husband & wife, sharing a computer at a library, or brother and sister, roommates, ect. Try and be more careful when you tell others you will burn in hell because they choose to sin when they know it is wrong, but don’t worry I’m sure God will forgive you. 
As for your comments I do agree that abortion is wrong however I think not allowing stem cell research is wrong, I think housing prices in Los Angeles are wrong, I credit card companies giving massive credit lines to people who can’t handle it is wrong. There are lots of horrible things in the world that we all ignore each day (starving children, health care crisis) as much as I would like to see zero abortions I think this is only something that will happen naturally over the next 100 years or so, (society evolves away from abortion being a solution).
Until that time I am certain that abortion is a tool that pols use to manipulate the masses away from their real failings ( health care, crime, jobs ) right now the conservatives know that they can manipulate the religious right with abortion and the liberals know they can manipulate women by giving them a “right” and acting like somebody wants to take it away. I work in marketing and I know ofr a fact that if I was a strategist for either side this is how I would have played this card because it is a fail proof strategy, unless people start to realize they are being manipulated into focusing on one subject instead of realizing the broad array of real issues out there.
Christine the Lioness quibbed this
OMG… I just looked it up and sure enough, Christopher is right. Vicki and Eddie have the same IP address and are definitely using the same computer. Considering they both seem to have the ability to post on it all day long, I’m guessing it’s not just some major coincidence that two people who don’t know each other happen to be taking turns coming to our blog multiple times a day on the exact same public computer in a cyber cafe or library. Again. Relying on logic here and it’s a bit too much of a coincidence.
So I, too, would like to know why, Vicky, you lied when Christopher asked you if you knew Eddie. Did you think we would dismiss the two of you in some way because of it? We wouldn’t have. You’re both welcome to post your thoughts on this blog.
But I do find it ironic that you are preaching about how good Christians don’t make the same mistakes over and over and then you flat out lie (which God says in the commandments you aren’t supposed to do).
You know… the higher the horse, the further the fall.
Mara the Peacemaker commented
Vicki,
The entire first paragraph of your post is bewildering. It takes two to tango yet somehow the woman is solely to blame for becoming pregnant. Could you have written a more inconsistent statment? Your argument that women should say no to sex proves my point more than it does yours. I said your arguments were naive and disingenuous because you fail to acknowledge that our society (mostly run by men…more lawmakers are men, etc) has created conditions that cause women to choose abortions. It’s attitudes such as yours that contribute to women having MORE abortions, not less. Women aren’t held at gunpoint and forced to have abortions, no. But the fact is, many women who choose to have abortions make that choice out of a place of desperation. I have NEVER known a woman who was happy about having an abortion and to me, it’s a sad day when a woman makes that choice. I have NEVER known a woman who viewed her abortion as an easy way out. It is probably one of the most difficult decisions a woman will ever make in her life if she chooses to have one. Don’t think for a second that getting an abortion is easy for most of the woman that have them, that it’s a walk in the park or a piece of cake. It isn’t.
With that being said, if you want to hold women accountable for becoming pregnant, then hold men as well. Hold BOTH parties accountable. Men are just as much to blame for this issue as women are and until that is addressed, I mean, really addressed, abortions are going to continue to happen.
“How can you sleep at night? Have you not ever looked at pictures of abortion? Take a close look at the little fingers and toes. It is not a blob of tissue. It is clearly a human that someone is killed.
I sleep very well. None of this is compelling because it isn’t going to stop abortions. If your passion is to stop abortions, stop blaming women and look for a way to help them. Until women feel that they must have abortions, they will not stop and all of your impassionate rants about the sanctity of life and people supporting abortion facing eternal judgment will have been for naught.
Mara the Peacemaker commented
Christopher,
Hey, my fiance’s name is Chris. Random little tidbit.
But onto other things. I think you’re right about the abortion “issue” being used as political fodder. I have noticed this when people play the middle. You know, “I believe in the sanctity of life but I support abortions for women who have been raped or are victims of incest.” That statement always gets me for a couple of reasons: 1) It is obvious that some sort of political pandering is being done in order to gain the support of those who are not totally pro-choice and maybe keep their pro-lifers happy and 2) I have never understand how you could believe in the sanctity of life yet condone the killing of those who are probably the most innocent in a rape/incest scenario.
I don’t know if that is what you were getting at. I just have noticed as well how it’s a tool that is used for politicians and no one seems to really care about addressing the issue: how to stop women from choosing abortions.
Christopher the Pyro pontificated
Mara,
The only flaw in your two to tango argument is that the man doesn’t have a say after the fact, if he does have a say then maybe he does share responsibility but he doesn’t have any power in deciding if an abortion happens or not yet if the woman decides to have the baby he does have to pay for it.
Your example of playing the middle is a good one, I agree killing is killing and I have always found it slightly backwards that abortion is wrong except when it is rape or incest because the baby certainly didn’t do anything yet they are one of the people being punished.
Vicki the Groupie spake, and sayeth
I don’t know an Eddie, but we have had company in the past few days. If if was my guest then they used a different name. So I did not lie to you about anything. I may have been unaware of something, but not lieing.
Vicki the Groupie scribbled
Women are to blame for abortions, because women are the ones having them. Believe me I know some men are irresponsible, thats why women need to be more responsible. A man is not holding a gun to a woman and forcing her to get an abortion. Women are doing it on their own.
Just because a woman gets pregnate by an irresponsible man does not give her the right to have an abortion. You say women have abortions out of desperation, well they did were not desperate when they were having sex, were they.
Woman are responsible for own actions. If I have sex I know there is a chance I might get pregnate; that is why it is up to me as a woman in control to take the neccessary steps not to get pregnate. It is my responsibility.
Mara, none of this is compelling to you because you think woman have the right to kill their children. Question, what is your view on people like Andrea Yates or the woman who stoned her children to death? Is it okay or is she a cruel person?
Women want equal rights, right? I know men mainly control this country, but that is how it is and nothing will change that. It has been that way for many, many years. I hate the idea of women being known for advocating killing. Women need to stand together against killing. Mothers are suppose to have the instincit to protect their children not kill them
Mara the Peacemaker said this
“The only flaw in your two to tango argument is that the man doesn’t have a say after the fact, if he does have a say then maybe he does share responsibility but he doesn’t have any power in deciding if an abortion happens or not yet if the woman decides to have the baby he does have to pay for it.”
Well, I don’t think the argument is flawed. Whether a man has a say in what happens to the baby after it is conceived has no bearing on whether he shares responsibility in its initial creation. I object to Vicki’s argument that a woman should bear the consequences of having sex, that because the woman chose to have sex, the fact that she got pregnant is solely her fault mainly because that argument serves to support abortion more than it does to end it. In other words, abortion is, I think, in the end, more beneficial to men because it sends the message to men (and women, our society generally) that they don’t have to be responsible, that the children they help to create aren’t their problem. When we tell women that it’s their fault they became pregnant, we’re also implicitly saying that men are not at fault, that they are homefree, so to speak. That view doesn’t help end abortions. It’s part of what fuels them.
Mara the Peacemaker penned this
“Just because a woman gets pregnate by an irresponsible man does not give her the right to have an abortion. You say women have abortions out of desperation, well they did were not desperate when they were having sex, were they. ”
I have never said that a woman who gets pregnant by an irresponsible man has a right to an abortion. What I SAID is that type of attitude, the idea that men are not to blame for pregnancies and have absolutely no hand in women obtaining abortions, the idea that women need to be more responsible as men aren’t, contributes TO abortion; it doesn’t lessen it. Whether you think it’s right or not doesn’t change the fact that many women DO have abortions out of desperation in part because we have created and allowed to flourish a society that puts the brunt of sexual responsibility on women as though women have sex and become pregnant by themselves.
“Woman are responsible for own actions. If I have sex I know there is a chance I might get pregnate; that is why it is up to me as a woman in control to take the neccessary steps not to get pregnate. It is my responsibility. ”
Aw, the double-standard: Women are responsible for their own actions yet somehow men are not. This would make sense if women became pregnant by themselves but they don’t. Men are responsible for their actions yet your view ensures that men are never forced to accept that responsibility. This is the very view that ENCOURAGES abortions instead of lessening them. In fact, it’s one of the many reasons feminists in the 1970s fought FOR abortion. I’m suprised you have failed to make this connection.
You seem to think that since men are irresponsible the idea is that women should be MORE responsible. No, that isn’t the way it works. Men AND women need to share the responsibility of sex and creating a life. Women should not bear the brunt of it because they become pregnant.
Mara the Peacemaker uttered
“Mothers are suppose to have the instincit to protect their children not kill them”
Obviously, in your view some women don’t have these instincts. Perhaps they shouldn’t be mothers.
Vicki the Groupie quibbed this
Mara,
THE FACT IS MEN AND WOMEN HAVE SEX, THEY BOTH KNOW THE WOMAN CAN GET PREGNATE. THE MAN HAS NO SAY IN ABORTION, THE WOMAN MAKES THE CHOICE TO HAVE AN ABORTION. SO YES IT IS THE WOMANS FAULT FOR HAVING AN ABORTION. IF A WOMAN DOES NOT WANT TO TAKE THE CHANCE AN GET PREGNATE SHE IS RESPOSNIBLE FOR TAKE THE MEASURES NOT TO GET PREGNATE. REMEMBER SHE IS CONTROL OF HER BODY (AS PRO CHOICE SUPPORTERS SAY). DOES THE MAN HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY NO TO ABORTION, NO HE DOES NOT. THAT CHOICE IS LEFT UP THE WOMAN.
As for men not taking responsibility for their children, yes that happens just like some women do the same thing. There is good and bad in both genders. I agree both men and women should take care of their resposibilities concerning children. I also know for 100% certainity that many many women use their children against the child’s father, and many many times the father is forced out of the childs life. Alot of this has to do with child support, men go to jail for not paying child support (yes men should help care for thier children). I also know that many men cannot afford to pay the amount of support they are ordered to pay and instead of the mother working with the father she has him thrown in jail for non payment.
I have a solution for abortion, but of course you will come back with some bull shit against it. If a woman get pregnate and decides she wants an abortion the father should be contacted and given the option to raise the child himself. If he does not want the child and the mother doesn’t want the child….the child should be given up for adoption (of course adoption laws need to be changed to make it more affordable). If this happened neither biological parent would be responsible for caring for the child. Oh it will not happen over night, but it could work.
Eddie the Virgin hunt n' pecked this
My poor pitiful blame it on someone else list:
If I get pregnant…………… 
blame it on the man)
If I kill my own children…….: (blame it on my hormones or maybe God said to do it)
If I do ANYTHING wrong in my life:
Blame it on society
Blame it on the media
Blame it on the nearest object
Blame it on something because I sure didn’t do it on my own
But wait!
Maybe I should blame it on my self since I consciously did wrong.
No, that would make me look bad, so I’ll go back to my poor pitiful me list.
vicki the Groupie got all philosophical
I found this blog you might like, it seems right up your alley
prolifevsprochoice.blogspot.com
sometimes you have to type the address in, sometimes it will not go by coping
Christine the Lioness stated
I agree with you, Mara. It’s this attitude that women are solely responsible, that gives men an easy out. There are lots of women who choose abortion because when they explained that they were pregnant to the father of the baby, he didn’t want to have anything to do with it. Based on knowing they would have no support from the other person RESPONSIBLE for creating the pregnancy, they choose to abort rather than go it alone. Tell me how that is not a man choosing abortion. It may not be as direct, but male irresponsibility is certainly a factor in a woman’s choice. I am guessing many women who choose abortion would have chosen not to if they knew the father was going to be around to support the child both emotionally and financially, and help raise the child once it’s born.
vicki the Groupie pontificated
Instead of going at it alone, the woman chooses to abort her baby. That tells me she is a coward, selfish, and irresponsible. HERE IS EVEN A BETTER SOLUTION FOR WOMAN………DONT HAVE SEX!!!!!!!! IF A WOMAN DOES NOT HAVE SEX SHE WILL NOT GET PREGNANT!!!!
Before anyone comes back and says it is a woman’s right to have sex…..here is what I have to say to that.
I guess their five minutes of pleasure is worth killing a child!
Christopher the Pyro mentioned
I think Mara and Christine your really missing the main point here. If women want this decision to be solely yours, and if you are pro-choice then you don’t want to be required to consult anybody then in the end the buck stops with you.
I know that sounds like a lot of responsibility for a grown up… I’m sorry it is. It sounds to me that you want a man to be held partially responsible for getting a woman pregnant but you don’t want him to have responsibility in choosing the abortion. That simply is not going to work. You really cannot have it both ways, simply put either the abortion continues as a decision couples make ( unless the man is dead, not around, or gave up his rights ) or women you need to realize that you are 100% responsible for that decision and nobody is forcing you to make it and yes that does require you to have extra prudence, (more then men) before you have sex. I’m not sure why this concept seems unfair to you. With the certain abilities comes certain responsiblities, having babies places more responsiblity on you, now if you want to pass the buck to men then clearly you should not have the right to choose abortion because it is a decision that women can clearly not make. ( This is based on the logic that you are placing blame onto other people when CLEARLY the the choice is only yours so the responsibility can only be yours ). A man cannot get you pregnant without your consent and only if you choose not to protect yourself. If I don’t wear a bullet proof vest and I’m a soldier in war and someone shoots me, that is my fault… not the guy who shot me.
In the end I don’t have a solution but I do know for sure that pro-choice thinking that Christine and Mara are pushing is as illogical and worthless as telling someone they are evil for killing babies and they are going to burn in hell. Neither has any basis in a logical argument and has all kinds of emotion written into them. Look women have been wronged by men and men have been wronged by women since the beging of time, if the point is to find a way to reduce unwanted babies, then telling people they are responsible when clearly the power to make a difference is with one party (women) is just not the way to improve things. I also think that antagonizing people by telling them they are going to burn in hell is also 100% counter productive it certainly doesn’t help.
Christopher the Pyro remarked
Additionally. Vicki, please do not post any more links to other sites with dead babies, #1 I don’t care encourage emotional responses to something that can’t be fixed with emotion, #2 respect the dead, and #3 It is clearly a manipulative strategy that is not welcome where we are trying to have a semblance of good debate that would move us toward and improved society.
Mara the Peacemaker stated
Christopher,
For one, I’ve never argued that men should have no say in abortions. My point has simply been that blaming women solely for abortions is counterproductive to the goal of reducing abortions to the point where women would choose not to have them. Not only that, it puts the blame entirely on women when men have had a hand in creating the conditions that cause some women to have abortions. Simply put: the fault for abortions or pregnancy is not all on women. I use the word “choose” because women will have abortions whether or not it is illegal (and abortion was legal in some states such as California prior to Roe v. Wade). So I’m not making a pro-choice argument. I’m not making pro-life one either. I am saying that the only way to reduce abortions (if you are against them) is to reverse the conditions that contribute to them. Teaching men that prevention of pregnancy is solely the woman’s domain is something that contributes to abortions. People talk about women wanting abortions and men to take responsibility as illogcal (the wanting your caking and eating it too). Well, so is a man’s complete abdication of responsibility yet wanting to tell women they can’t have abortions. I think despite our abortion laws, wanting to reduce abortions is a worthy goal. I just realize that it isn’t going to happen when we don’t acknowledge and teach BOTH parties that sexual responsibility must be put upon everyone.
I also disagree with your statement that clearly the one party to make a difference is women. Men have more power than they realize. Women are not the only parties who can help prevent unwanted pregnancies and abortions.
Christopher the Pyro pontificated
I disagree.. it really is the womans “fault” because in the end it is your body. If I don’t study for a test and fail that was my fault for not preparing not the teacher for making the test. If I get carjacked for because I ride with my doors unlocked that is my fault for not locking my doors not the criminal who did the car jacking. Yes it was “done” to me but I didn’t prevent it, and I had the power to prevent it. Men can prevent pregnancy also by using condoms or not having sex, however I do believe at this time, that women do have more control over the situation if for no other reason then men cannot have babies and women can. Women have more of a vested interest in protecting themselves, but for some reason some women don’t want to accept that it is easier to take more time protecting themselves and having that responsibility then to deal with the difficult reality of having a baby.. or the having an abortion.
Vicki the Groupie mentioned
Christopher,
Those pictures are what the debate is about. If a woman can look at those pictures and still thinks it is okay to have abortion, they have very inhamane people. I think those who say it is okay for woman to have abortion should look at the pictures everyday. I have respect those innocent babies!!!
The debate about who is responsible will go on forever, but the truth the woman deteremines if the child lives or dies.
I bet Christine or Mara did not look at the link. WHY???? Maybe they are don’t want to see what the think we woman should have the right to do. Maybe they should go to an abortion clinic and see what exactly what happens to these babies. Hell give the the medical instruments and let them do it themseleves, because of course it is the man’s fault the woman is having an abortion anyways.
As far as buring in Hell…….anyone who commits a sin (not just abortion) and does not ask for forgiveness will burn in hell.
Mara the Peacemaker remarked
Christopher,
Your argument that pregnancy being a woman’s fault just doesn’t wash. Yes, it’s the woman’s body but whether she gets pregnant isn’t solely her fault. Furthermore, your examples are inapposite. For example, you said, “If I don’t study for a test and fail that was my fault for not preparing not the teacher for making the test.” I’m not disputing that. But the difference between this scenario, the carjacking and pregnancy is that women don’t get pregnant by themselves. If they did, we’d be having a totally different conversation. No one else has anything to do with you not studying for a test or locking your doors. Men very much play a role in creating children.
“Men can prevent pregnancy also by using condoms or not having sex, however I do believe at this time, that women do have more control over the situation if for no other reason then men cannot have babies and women can.”
This is a cop-out argument and you cannot argue away the man’s responsibility and role. The fact that men don’t actually have babies doesn’t mean that they are without power to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Your view unwittingly advocates pregnancy as a woman’s problem. You know the conversation — a woman tells the man she’s pregnant and he responds with “So what are you going to do?” Not “what are we going to do” or even to himself “What am I going to do?” Because it is the woman who carries the child, the pregnancy (the blame and responsibility) is shifted to her as if somehow he didn’t have a hand in her pregnant state.
Men have just as much control as women to prevent unwanted pregnancies (which translates to less abortions) and have just as a much of a duty to prevent them as women. Just as women have the power to use birth control or not engage in sex (as others on this board have suggested), so do men. Women cannot get pregnant unless men play some role in that.
“Women have more of a vested interest in protecting themselves, but for some reason some women don’t want to accept that it is easier to take more time protecting themselves and having that responsibility then to deal with the difficult reality of having a baby.. or the having an abortion.”
Oh to the contrary, I would argue that for some reason, men don’t want to accept responsibility for contributing to the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions. Even you, who acknowledged that men can also prevent pregnancies as would still relieve men of responsibility because, since pregnancy happens to women, she bears the brunt of preventing it. It’s easier to claim that it’s the woman’s body, that it’s her fault and her problem than it is to acknowledge that but for his participation in the act, she would not be pregnant.
I also find this view somewhat ironic and this is sort of what I alluded to in my earlier post to you. If men want to shift all responsibility for sex and pregnancy to women, then I would agree they don’t have the right to tell a woman how to deal with unwanted pregnancies (abortions included). This is not to say that women have a right to abortion. I’m just saying that if men don’t want to take responsibility for their actions, they cannot judge women for theirs.
Mara the Peacemaker scribbled
“Maybe they should go to an abortion clinic and see what exactly what happens to these babies.”
I can’t speak for Christine, but I already know what happens in abortions. I’ve been to abortion clinics, I’ve met and known personally women who have had abortions. You didn’t post anything that I haven’t seen or heard before and once again, your appeals to emotion are not compelling.
Christopher the Pyro asserted
“women don’t get pregnant by themselves. If they did, we’d be having a totally different conversation. No one else has anything to do with you not studying for a test or locking your doors. Men very much play a role in creating children.”
However men play zero role if women don’t choose to let them play a role and that is why the main responsibility is with women. Additionally I have no problem having equal responsibility if I will also have a say in whether the abortion happens or not, however until that time, I see this as a double standard that is very much in womens interest to propagate. Simply men cannot play a role unless women give them a role in the first place and if women are planning on having sex and they know what can come of it, they should prepare anything else is just naive. I’m not saying men don’t shift responsibility, clearly they do, but this is not an after the fact debate this is a before the even occurs, and when women make the choice to have sex with a man, they also can make a choice to protect themselves from men shifting the blame after the fact.
Anyway you cut this, there can be no pregnancy unless women allows one to happen. Now what happens after the fact, I agree with you 100% that men do shift the blame and they should not shift the blame but at that point does it really matter? The damage is done. However I do think it would be helpful if more women were like Christine and kept this from ever being an actual problem because she is responsible enough to protect herself. ( I’m only allow to have anal and oral sex with her )
There seems to be a few to many debates going on at one time!
Christine the Lioness up'n wrote this
I agree that more women need to be responsible if they feel (and I believe most women do) it will be a difficult situation to be in if they find themselves pregnant. A logical woman should know that if she gets pregnant, there is a chance the guy could be completely irresponsible and bail, and she will have to make the decision to keep the baby and raise it alone, have an abortion, or give it up for adoption. All of those are difficult decisions, so if one doesn’t ever want to be in that situation, she should take extra precautions. The flip side of that is… if a man really is against abortion and would want to keep the child if he impregnated a woman whether she wanted the child or not, then HE needs to exercise extra prudence too and either take extra precautions that he doesn’t get someone pregnant, or he only sleeps with women who agree with his point of view if she ever did get pregnant. Just like a woman knows she can get pregnant and may have to make a tough decision, a man knows what his rights are in this country and should make his decision (before he has sex) accordingly.
I believe if there were more men who were willing to take responsibility and help raise the child– as opposed to just bailing– there would be less women having abortions. And I agree with Mara that to put the responsibility for pregnancy solely on women is a cop out for men.
Christopher also said, “Anyway you cut this, there can be no pregnancy unless women allows one to happen.” That’s simply false. It’s called rape, and it does happen. And pregnancies do result from it. But really, that’s besides the point.
With regards of posting pictures of dead fetuses, etc… well, that’s like people posting pictures of dead soldiers in an effort to sway people against war. It’s sort of a pathetic technique that relies on “shock value” to appeal to a visceral, emotional response (as opposed to a logical one) like Vicki’s erroneous, but constant use of the word “murder” to describe abortion (you’ll see above where I explained to Vicki that “murder” is a legal term which can’t apply to abortion since abortion is legal and “murder” is not). I agree with Christopher that it’s pretty tasteless.
I appreciate Christopher’s compliment that he wishes more women were responsible like me. I’m 33 years old, have been sexually active since I was 18, and have never been pregnant. I’ve always had protected sex, and chosen men who also advocated protected sex, because I wanted to do everything in my power (short of abstinence) to prevent ever having to make a decision to have an abortion or have a baby. I’ve acted this way because I wanted– at the point I become pregnant– for it to happen at a time when I am financially and emotionally able to be the best mother I could ever be, and for it to be at a time when I want a baby more than anything. I personally feel that’s the way children should be brought into the world– by two parents who want a baby more than anything and are elated when they find out the woman’s pregnant. I feel every child deserves that, and since I’m really the only person I can control, that is how I am going to be.
I wish every woman took the same precautions I do, I wish every man stepped up and took precautions even if the woman he’s with didn’t, I wish there were no such things as rape, incest, Down’s Syndrome babies, etc. But the truth is… there are.
I wish there was less abortion. But I don’t believe the way to fix that problem is to make it illegal. There are other ways to attack that problem so that people will still have the choice, but won’t need to exercise it. And I really wish people like Vicki and Eddie, who are so passionate about reducing the number of abortions, would funnel that passion into solving the problems that create some women’s desire to have abortions instead of just posting links to pictures of dead babies.
Mara the Peacemaker remarked
“However men play zero role if women don’t choose to let them play a role and that is why the main responsibility is with women.”
Conversely, women play zero role if men don’t choose to let them play a role. If men don’t have sex with women, no pregnancy.
“Additionally I have no problem having equal responsibility if I will also have a say in whether the abortion happens or not, however until that time, I see this as a double standard that is very much in womens interest to propagate.”
You’ve conflated two issues that really have nothing to do with the other. I’m not arguing that men should or should not have a say in abortions. I’m not talking about whether men should have a say in what happens to a child after the fact. In fact, I’m not really make pro-choice arguments at all. My argument has been strictly that women should not be blamed solely for becoming pregnant. Some on this board have argued that women should bear the consequences of her actions and not abort her child. In other words, it’s her fault she became pregnant and she should be responsible and deal with it. That puts the responsibility for pregnancy solely on women. This issue is entirely different from whether a woman solely gets to decide if she’s going to have an abortion.
Whether you have a say in an abortion has nothing to do with whether you had a say in a woman becoming pregnant. I agree that you can’t control the former but you can very much control whether your sexual partner becomes pregnant and if she does become pregnant, that is as much your fault as it is hers. You chose to have sex with her. If both of you choose to have sex, and creating a child requires both of you, why does a pregnancy become her fault and not yours? Both of you were responsible for creating that child.
“Anyway you cut this, there can be no pregnancy unless women allows one to happen.”
Inaccurate. There can be no pregnancy unless a man and/or woman allow one. If women were the only parties that could prevent pregnancy, your argument would make sense. But since men can prevent pregnancy just as much as women can, it doesn’t.
“Simply men cannot play a role unless women give them a role in the first place and if women are planning on having sex and they know what can come of it, they should prepare anything else is just naive. I’m not saying men don’t shift responsibility, clearly they do, but this is not an after the fact debate this is a before the even occurs, and when women make the choice to have sex with a man, they also can make a choice to protect themselves from men shifting the blame after the fact.”
Not so simple actually as one could argue that men are giving the role to women. Using your words, if men are planning on having sex and they know what can come of it, they should prepare for the possibility of pregnancy. Anything else is just naive.
I’m not being sarcastic. I just see *this* as a double-standard that is in the man’s interest to propagate. By shifting the responsibility to prevent pregnancy entirely on women, pregnancy becomes a woman’s issue. Pregnancy is not something that merely “happens” to women. Pregnancy is the creation of a human life. A life that took two people to make. That means that both persons are responsible and both individuals have a duty to make sure unwanted pregnancies don’t occur. I find to require anything less absolutely ludicrous.
This debate/conversation reminds of me of a discussion I had with someone some years back. He was fighting a court order to pay child support. He argued that he shouldn’t have to pay because he told his girlfriend he didn’t want children. Thus, from his perspective, since she knew he didn’t want children, it was up to her prevent it. But *he* did nothing to prevent it. He left birth control methods entirely up to her. Now this doesn’t concern abortion but the idea he had is the same you’re promoting now. His girlfriend knew he didn’t want children so if she got pregnant it was her fault. But to me, if he knew he didn’t want children, it was up to him to take takes to ensure that the girlfriend didn’t get pregnant. It was not his girlfriend’s responsibility. It was his.
*I* think it would be more helpful if men started taking responsibility for their actions and stopped shifting the blame on women. Or it they don’t want the responsibility, stop telling women what to do about *their* pregnancies. You said women can’t have it both ways. Well, neither can men.
Mara the Peacemaker mentioned
“Anyway you cut this, there can be no pregnancy unless women allows one to happen.”
Even if I were to accept your argument that women have sole responsibility of preventing pregnancy, to piggy back off of Christine who pointed to rape as an example of a situation where a woman doesn’t “allow” a pregnancy, aside from that, many pregnancies occur despite active attempts to prevent them. Various methods of birth control can and do fail. In those situations where the woman is implementing the methods, I wouldn’t characterize her as “allowing” a pregnancy to occur.
I think I’m just confused by what you mean by “allow.”
I will start with Mara direct quote …. “Pregnancy is the creation of a human life”
You are exactly right, HUMAN LIFE! Common sense should tell you since you acknowledge pregnancy as the creation of HUMAN LIFE that abortion is wrong.
We send people to jail for killing another human, but we do nothing if a woman has an abortion. This is no difference. Killing is killing no matter how you look at.
I think people should see what abortion looks like. It is a horrible act of violence, but because we have a handful of Surpreme Court Justices that say it is okay then many people believe it is. Abortion pictures do not offend me, they make me angry and very very sad. These tiny little humans are being slaughtered.
Mara if seeing a child with his/her head torn off due to abortion does not appeal to you then you really are a cold and heartless human. What if someone did that to someone you close to you, would that appeal to you? I guess not since people do it to INNOCENT babies everyday.
Mara, I to know someone who has had an abortion and regrets it everyday of her life. Was she wrong YES, but now she advocates against it. People do make mistakes and mistakes are forgiveable. She never seen a picture of an aborted baby until I did a speech in college over the topic. She sat there and cried and cried for what she done. Maybe she did not understand the full scope of abortion or whatever the reason was, so yes I think all women and men should see these pictures. It changed her mind. Of course there will be women who do not care and will do it anyways, that becaue they are heartless. Do you have children Mara?
Christine, I know murder is a legal term, but abortion is a legalized murder. You say I should funnel my passion toward finding a solution to the problem….well you can tell woman and men whatever you want but you know as well as I do people will do what they want to do. ABORTION SHOULD BE ILLEGAL! I assume you do know believe in the people who kidnap and kill children right? What is the difference in that and abortion? They are all children. What makes one child’s life more important than the other? I do not believe in killing anyone (unless self defense), that includes abortion, child killers, serial killers, crimes of passion, and the death penalty. Killing is wrong. We punish all of crimes involving killing except abortion. Some people are also punished if they run a red light and accidently kill an unborn child, even if the woman was on her to an abortion clinic. Now thats a DOUBLE STANDARD. There is logic my dear.
Christopher the Pyro up'n wrote this
You are both “right” that rape does happen and women get pregnant, that really wasn’t where I was going with that, the truth is I’m not talking about crack heads, rapes, incest or any other relatively circumstances because that is not the majority of abortions. I should have been more clear.
I’m talking about people like myself and Christine, if Christine isn’t on the pill and I know this and I don’t use protection am I 50% at fault for this pregnancy yes. However I have no say in what she does after the fact, so in the end that pregnancy really is her issue because no matter what I do, I can have no affect on what she does. She will keep the baby if she wants or not, regardless of if I’m going to be a good supportive dad or not, I simply have no LEGAL say. Because of this I do feel women have a larger burden in this situation, because the reality is in the end it is her making the decisions. Will she make those decisions based on what I say and think, possibly.. but she might not. She might decide she has a career she is interested in following or that she is too young or that she doesn’t love me. I think she should start by focusing on the reasons for the majority of abortions and then move on to the rape / incest issue because really those are a very small % compared to the number of abortions that are chosen “just because”. All good points ladies.
Vicki the Groupie up'n wrote this
The anonymous post was mine, I forgot to fill in the info.
Here are some abortion statistics of why women have abortion.
Social Reasons (given as
