Christine the Lioness (3122)
Christopher the Pyro (1985)
ProphetJoe the Irreverent (1242)
Trouble the Pirate (601)
Keith the Director (573)
Mara the Peacemaker (532)
eric the Lil' Devil (351)
AJ the Zen Master (305)
Ben the Kingpin (213)
Haas the Addict (187) Bellatmot the Addict (186)
Christine 2 the Mercenary (131) Lei the Mercenary (124) Katie the Mercenary (115) ProphetJoe the Irreverent commented
Christine said “you like to achieve these lofty goals without having to deal with the hassle of dealing with traffic” — Umm, wouldn’t psychics know where the traffic delays are going to be and avoid them anyway?
This is a subject near and dear to my 
— I am, after all, a prophet of sorts…
Christine the Lioness added
Yes, they would. However, in California, er, just L.A., pretty much every freeway, street, and access road has delays. There is no avoiding them.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent quibbed this
OK, point taken — but I would still expect them to be able to avoid the multi-car chain-reaction pileups which are becoming common place in So. Cal.
Trouble the Pirate stated
Too easy Miss Christine… In deference to Lily, I am not going to make fun of “psychics” at this time. Although the whole venture is steeped in capitalist indifference to integrity, I am positive that there are many people working in the industry who DO genuinely care about helping others through difficult times, by providing an attentive ear, and quite possibly some good advice. Why not make some money at the same time? There’s no real crime, the customer will probably get what they want… I have met many people [mostly women] who seem to have a natural gift. Even if they are not highly educated, they have a sort of ’street-smart intuition’ about trumping some of life’s little dilemmas. I often think that these people would be well suited to being “psychics…”
People pay psychiatrists $$$ per hour to listen to them, and more often provide very little useful information to them regarding actually solving their problems.
Most people believe they have ‘issues’, when in fact what they have is ‘problems’… In my experience ‘problems’ are far easier to solve than ‘issues’, and usually only require a short time of analysis… Most people are too involved in the scenario to think clearly, or they do not trust their own intuition, and they just need someone else to appear to care and offer some validation to what they are already thinking…
I would go out on a limb and state that I would not be shocked if I were told that extensive and excessively endowed studies at some random California university proved that on a daily basis, these “psychics” actually helped more people than their stuffed-shirt counterparts…
Christopher the Pyro asserted
My secretary did this at one of her past jobs, they give you a book to flip to the right chapter and read predefined answers. I can promise you, she cannot tell the future on any level..
Christopher the Pyro got all philosophical
A better point.. “your likely to be able to achieve your goals by avoiding traffic”… umm wouldn’t you be able to make a few billion dollars in a few hours with the stock market if you were actually a physic? Oh ya.. I forgot.. the powers can’t be used for profit.
free labiology for the Virgin quibbed this
Gee Chris… If you don’t like me spammin’ just say so bro, no need to callously delete my comments like that… 
ProphetJoe the Irreverent added
I know I shouldn’t ask — but WTF is “free labiology”, dude?
Trouble the Pirate got all philosophical
I’ve heard of Chirology [reading palms] and Phrenology [reading bumps on the head]… So Labiology must be… … …
Christine the Lioness got all philosophical
Trouble… while some people MAY believe they’re actually helping people by “pretending” to be psychic when they’re not… bottom line is, they’re doing it to try to make money. If they just want to be good people who help others work through their “issues,” go sit at a bar for a couple hours, listen to people whine about what’s bothering them, and give ‘em some encouragement. The fact that they’re pulling the wool over someone’s eyes and professing to have powers they don’t have, imho, negates any noble intention they’d like us to believe drew them to that career. Do “psychics” help some people? Sure, I’m guessing there are lots of people who feel better about their situation simply because they’ve talked to someone about it. Did it help Lily? No. Do these people have any more insight than anyone else about your particular situation… nope. Are they charging you money because you think they do? Absolutely. That’s enough for me to form an opinion about their motives.
With regards to psychiatrists, do they help some people? I think so. Do they fail to help some people. I’m guessing yes. But at least they have some sort of training and college degree — so they’ve learned a little more about how to help people than the layman has. And they aren’t professing to be something they’re not just to get people to write them a check.
Trouble the Pirate up'n wrote this
Don’t make it sound like I said more than I did Christine… I said, “I am positive that there are many people working in the industry who DO genuinely care about helping others through difficult times, by providing an attentive ear, and quite possibly some good advice. Why not make some money at the same time?”
It’s a job, and there’s a niche market for it. This would just be an indicator of good work ethic and probably someone who is happy at/ attempts to do the job properly. Most of these ‘companies’ are not conceived/started/run by the ‘psychics’ who work the lines, they don’t make the real money. Dr. Phil makes the real money… And he ain’t got no college degree I ever seen…
All the advertising for these ’services’ have fine-print or speed-talked disclaimers that the ‘psychics’ do not really predict the future, it is for ‘entertainment’ purposes only… Just like the drug and car-lease ad’s do with their side-effects and hidden costs respectively… This keeps them within the extremely broad scope of the US law, and allows them to operate as any other capitalist business… After that, if you look at Kenny Kingston or Miss Cleo and believe they have the ability to Calgon your cares away, then it’s your nickel…
I saying that there are three sides to every coin… Why should the Psychiatrists corner the whole paranoia inducing market at $350 an hour, when you can get similar advice for $3.99 a minute… If the Shrinks want to compete then they could move to per-minute billing too…
People put a lot of stock in ‘experts’… An expert is just someone who can retain vast amounts of information on a given subject. If ten of the world’s leading head-shrinkers got together and worked out a flowchart system for online self-diagnosis of your psychological quirks, even if they left no “i” uncrossed, or no “t” undotted… A veritable “Psyche for Dummies”… You could register for $4.95 at Paypal, and point & click your way to mental well-being… Would it be taken as seriously as some random, voyeuristic busybody in a cheap suit who graduated from the International Psychological Institute of Sweetfucknowhere, Pensylvania?
Trouble the Pirate remarked
Incidentally, I’m really just arguing the Devil’s Advocate… I do see the harm that can come from misleading someone for financial gain… But then don’t single out the “Psychics”, the entire consumer driven industry in the United States of I’ll buy that with my Discover Card, does exactly the same thing, even though each has their own spin on the snake-oil game…
Don’t bother challenging that statement. I can cite you at least one example for any enterprise/company you want… […and you know what? Having made that boast… I probably could… It’s not like they fall all over themselves covering the shit up…]
Trouble the Pirate scribbled
Incidentally again… Christine, I meant to tell you the other day… I have never, to date, encountered a female of any age, so adept at debate as yourself, while I am truly impressed by your skills and intelligence, and get very excited [not THAT way] at the prospect of each new subject to ponder and hash-up with you… At the same time I can only feel sorrow for Chris… The poor guy must have to be constantly on his toes… I mean, I can log off…
I’m going to go play darts now… 
Christine the Lioness stated
I assure you, that when it comes to debate, I can’t hold a candle to my lovable Christopher. I simply have the perseverance to keep up and verbal skills to twist shit around and make it seem like completely unrelated things are somehow relevant until people are simply confused. And then… again… perseverance pays off.
While I can sense your well-disguised animosity for the good ole U.S. of A in your words… I do have to point out that there are varying degrees of corporate ambition in “misleading” the consumer. While Nike only suggests that wearing their shoes could improve your performance, there’s tangible proof that they make shoes. Or, as you mentioned, Calgon… which really does take your cares away. Incidentally.
However, probably not as efficiently as a –>
psychic » Calling All Clairvoyants… the Virgin hunt n' pecked this
[…] came across this post - Calling All Clairvoyants… - and thought it was worth sharing. I hope you find it interesting too and take the time to read […]
ProphetJoe the Irreverent uttered
I have long been a proponent of, and possessor of, supernatural powers. It is one reason that I use the screen name ProphetJoe. I can cite irrefutable proof that I can see into the future. Hell, even on this blog I have predicted the future with 100% accuracy.
See http://www.chrisvschris.com/usc-1-all-other-teams-not-1/#comment-41773
There — I am ‘proof positive’ that prophesy exists. Trouble, on the other hand, is proof positive that rum is the devil’s brew
Trouble the Pirate mentioned
PJ… Do not purport to anthropomorphize the dark lord, he does not DISTILL his own rum, he has people in level 7 that do that for him…
Christine, why do I get the feeling that Chris hijacked your avatar to make that last comment? And really? I thought I had ‘hidden’ my animosity better than that… Truth be told, I don’t harbour animus for the USA or its constituents, any more so than any other country… I am an equal opportunity misanthrope…
I do have a certain rancour for blind consumerism in general however, but it is a worldwide trend, and can’t be attributed to any particular country alone.
I thought Calgon went bankrupt… Haven’t seen the ad’s in a while… Oops, my age is showing… It worked pretty good though…
…The manufacturers of Calgon would like to state that Calgon does not actually remove cares, but when combined with a stress free environment, regular exercise, a healthy diet, oodles of excess cash to buy whatever you want, daily multiple orgasms and copious amounts of Zanax ™, may contribute to an enhanced feeling of satisfaction with your miserable existence… Please drink responsibly…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent said this
Umm, when I said “devil’s brew”, I just meant his drink of choice… I never actually thought he was working the floor at the Bicardi plant.
Lily the Virgin chimed in with
What do you think of Lisa Williams, “Life Among the Dead,” a clairvoyant on Lifetime TV? I saw her for the first time this week, and it’s amazing the details she can give. That’s the type of reading I was looking for to give me answers about my husband.
Christine the Lioness said this
Lily… as someone who works in the television industry myself, let me explain something to you. It. Is. Fake. All of it. Writers write those shows, actors act in them, and then the editors and producers edit them so they can choose what they want to air. The show would suck of Lisa was always wrong, so there’s a lot of people being paid to make sure it looks like Lisa’s always right.
There was a clairvoyant a few years back on t.v. who did the same thing. He basically talked to dead relatives for people in his studio audience. The show was eventually canceled when it was leaked how he pulled off his hoax.
Evan the Virgin added
I found this blog and I just had to say something. I actually worked for this company, California Psychics, for two years starting in early 2005. And, though I don’t have any increased belief in psychic phenomena, I have to step up to their defense. I am not psychic, have never claimed to be, and have never given a psychic reading. I started with them in customer service and worked my way up into lower level management so I got a great understanding of both the customers and the business.
My take on it all is that the people claiming to be “psychics” aren’t villains, they truly believe in their abilities and most of the time they truly care about their clients. And their clients aren’t stupid people, most of the time they are just lonely or really need a selfish one-sided conversation with somebody they know they don’t have to be embarrassed to talk to. It is, as one person has said, very much a form of therapy.
One person said that the psychics just flip through a book, they don’t, they answer the questions as they are asked to the best of their abilities and there is absolutely no scripting. Also many of the “advisors” as they are sometimes called practice different new age healing techniques and provide advice that is very similar to that of a life coach.
And as far as money, for most of the psychics on the line this is a part time job that they during the times that they don’t have clients coming in to their shops in person. However many psychics have built loyal client bases and are able to fully support themselves and, yes make as much as a thousand dollars a week. If you think that’s too much money, think about it 1,000 a week is just over 50,000 a year if you never take a single day of vacation. That sounds like a pretty normal wage.
As cynical as I was when I first began working for California Psychics, by the end of my experience I had to begrudgingly admit that these are not scam artists. They guarantee their product and give full refunds on dissatisfaction, and the customers are on the large part very happy to use the service. At the same time the company provides over 300 people like you and me decent paying jobs. The real scam artists are out there, they convince people that they are cursed and charge them exorbitant amounts of money for crystals and other trinkets, basically blackmailing them with fear. California Psychics never lets this happen and anytime anything resembling it is found, the psychic is immediately let go.
That’s my piece, I understand the cynicism but really there’s nothing to be angry about. Nobody is having their money taken under any false pretenses, if you don’t believe me just give them a call and give it a try.
Thanks,
Evan
Christine the Lioness remarked
No thanks, Evan. I’ll keep my hard earned 50 grand a year (which by the way, is a lot considering that these people have nothing more than self-proclaimed skills).
I didn’t say they were ALL out trying to HURT other people, but I did say they are selling themselves under false pretenses. And you didn’t really say anything to disprove that. I mean, are “new age healing techniques” something with more validity and deserve more respect than someone saying they can see the future when they really can’t? New age healing techniques are no more proven than… fortune cookies. And trust me, if there was proof it worked, those who believe in new age techniques would be exploiting the shit out of that study because it would result in more cash.
So these people believe in their abilities… okay. Does that mean they have them? Not at all. So what’s your point? Some people believe they can fly. When they jump off a building and fall to their deaths, they find out they’re wrong.
And while it’s terrific that California Psychics can employ 300 people based on a completely non-existent service, illicit drug trafficking employs many more. Does that mean we should support it?
No offense, Evan, but if you want to make an argument, come with something to support it.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent thought this
I vehemently disagree with Christine!!
Just Google the Internet and I’m sure you will find much more scientific research supporting fortune cookies than new age healing techniques!
Besides, they’re sweet and crunchy without being too heavy — the perfect dessert after your sweet and sour entree!
Evan the Virgin mentioned
Hey Christine,
First off you contradict yourself in your counterargument:
“I didn’t say they were ALL out trying to HURT other people, but I did say they are selling themselves under false pretenses.”
First you say that they are selling themselves under false pretenses and then you say:
“So these people believe in their abilities… okay.”
If they believe that their abilities are real and the customer believes they are then the transaction only exists under false pretenses if the abilities can be proven not to exist. And though, correct there is no scientific basis proving the existence of clairvoyance and esp there is also a similar drought of conclusive evidence disproving it. Again, I don’t believe in any psychic abilities but that is my belief and I’m not going to force it on others.
Your argument regarding claiming to have the ability to fly and then jumping off a building is trite and doesn’t even fit what we’re talking about, can’t you come up with a better analogy?
Also the skills they have are not self-proclaimed, if the readers aren’t able to provide customers comfort and valid advice for their lives then they don’t receive return business and aren’t able to make a living. I honestly don’t understand what makes you so angry about this. The readers jobs are very difficult and you wouldn’t want them. Sure they sit on their ass all day but they also listen to the miserable troubles of desperate people day in and day out. And they sit there and offer nothing but positive helpful advice for people trapped in abusive relationships, damaged psyches without enough self-confidence to go that job interview, and 50-60 year old widows and divorcees looking for a reassuring voice that its ok for them to start dating again.
These are people with sometimes personal and embarrassing questions who just want somebody to talk to, somebody who is ok with a selfish conversation, and who is going to give their best advice.
If you think the service is non-existent, if you think that people are being ripped off and scammed because you don’t believe in what they believe, then why don’t you actually talk to the people that regularly use the service and ask them if they have found value in it. I will promise you that they do, that is why they spend their hard earned money on it.
For some reason you sound as if you feel like you are getting ripped off because you can’t make 50 thousand a year sitting on the phone “pretending” to be a psychic. But honestly, its work…its hard work and its a service that people are actively seeking. Again I don’t believe in psychic phenomenon either, I’m not arguing the existence of it, but who am I to tell either of these people (the readers or the customers) that their beliefs are wrong? And who am I to tell them to talk to about these issues that they aren’t comfortable discussing with their closest friend (if they have friends). Nobody is getting ripped off here and you’re the only one getting angry. Have you tried asking yourself why you’re so angry?
Thanks,
Evan
Trouble the Pirate commented
Ooooooh, you gonna get a whipppppiiiiiinnnn…
Christopher the Pyro hunt n' pecked this
Evan,
“If they believe that their abilities are real and the customer believes they are then the transaction only exists under false pretenses if the abilities can be proven not to exist.”
This is 100% not true, it is easy to prove they have no abilities & that the clients are choosing to be mislead (lack of physic ability has been disproven more times than is worth mentioning at this point).
Is this illigal… it’s a gray line the fact is these people do not have any more physic ability than I do but they advertise that they do, this is false advertising but anybody with 2 ounces of brain power realizes they are being mislead and they are choosing that route.
Additionally by no physic ever actually proving there ability under scientific conditions does actually prove they don’t have them, I do not need to disprove the idea to show that it does not exist. I suggest you read this post, it will help illustrate the flaw in your thinking.
I would suggest reading a book on the proper way to argue, your breaking all the rules here. … clouding the issues, saying that not being able to to disprove
it makes it possible (it doesn’t) and also introducing emotion, if the people that are asking for these services were interested in confort, or getting encouragement they could join a support group .. they arn’t. They believe they are being told the future, and California Phycis doesn’t do anything warn them that they can’t actually tell the future.
Christine the Lioness chimed in with
I didn’t say they were ALL out trying to HURT other people, but I did say they are selling themselves under false pretenses.”
“First you say that they are selling themselves under false pretenses and then you say:
“So these people believe in their abilities… okay.”
If they believe that their abilities are real and the customer believes they are then the transaction only exists under false pretenses if the abilities can be proven not to exist. And though, correct there is no scientific basis proving the existence of clairvoyance and esp there is also a similar drought of conclusive evidence disproving it.”
Actually, that makes no sense. 1. There is no contradiction. They can believe they have the abilities, but if they REALLY don’t, they’re selling themselves under false pretenses. I can believe that I’m really Cleopatra, and you might be deluded enough to believe that I am, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. And 2. If something is not disproven, it’s not true? That’s not how science works. Something is considered “true” if it can be proven consistently to happen. Otherwise, it’s not considered to be a credible fact. Psychic powers are disproven all the time when these psychics go in to research labs and can’t consistently make predictions that come true beyond what normal chance would allow them to guess.
“Your argument regarding claiming to have the ability to fly and then jumping off a building is trite and doesn’t even fit what we’re talking about, can’t you come up with a better analogy?”
It fits precisely, but I’m guessing it makes you feel stupid which is why you’d prefer I came up with something different.
“Also the skills they have are not self-proclaimed, if the readers aren’t able to provide customers comfort and valid advice for their lives then they don’t receive return business and aren’t able to make a living.”
That’s simply not true. They aren’t calling their businesses “California Comfort Advisors,” they’re calling themselves “psychic.” Maybe they need to look up the definition of that word… OR maybe the word “psychic” does a better job of getting people to call because they believe they’re talking to.. uh… psychics. I never once said they don’t provide people comfort and advice. I believe they do. And I believe some people are truly helped by the advice they receive. But let’s stop trying to twist things and get back to the point… does that make them psychic? No. I can spout out medical advice and some of it might work, but it doesn’t make me a doctor.
“I honestly don’t understand what makes you so angry about this.”
I’m actually not angry. I don’t think it’s right for people to deceive other people… and I think that if you’re willing to deceive people and make a living providing a service that has no value, and sell that service by suggesting you have a power you don’t have, then you deserve to be called on the carpet and defend what you’re doing. I have no emotional attachment to this at all. But I do get some satisfaction in exposing bullshitters for being bullshitters.
“The readers jobs are very difficult and you wouldn’t want them. Sure they sit on their ass all day but they also listen to the miserable troubles of desperate people day in and day out. And they sit there and offer nothing but positive helpful advice for people trapped in abusive relationships, damaged psyches without enough self-confidence to go that job interview, and 50-60 year old widows and divorcees looking for a reassuring voice that its ok for them to start dating again.”
So… if their jobs are so miserable, why do they do it? Oh yeah… because they have this divine gift. I thought these people had some satisfaction for actually helping people… and now you’re saying the job sucks? Which is it?
And to suggest that these people offer good advice to everyone is simply ignorant. Some are probably giving good advice and some may not be. It’s hard to give advice to your best friend on certain subjects and you know the person, you know the people involved, and you have a history. Yet, you really expect me to just buy that these people all give good advice to someone they’ve talked to for less than an hour??? Are you kidding me?
“These are people with sometimes personal and embarrassing questions who just want somebody to talk to, somebody who is ok with a selfish conversation, and who is going to give their best advice.”
Some of them. But then again there are some who believe they’re talking to someone who is PSYCHIC. Why would they think that??? Oh yeah… because they’re calling “California PSYCHICS.”
“If you think the service is non-existent, if you think that people are being ripped off and scammed because you don’t believe in what they believe, then why don’t you actually talk to the people that regularly use the service and ask them if they have found value in it. I will promise you that they do, that is why they spend their hard earned money on it.”
It’s not a question of whether they find value. Psychologically, if you believe you are talking to a psychic who is giving you advice, it is human nature to, when experiencing something that psychic predicted, allow the experience to reinforce your belief in psychics. When you experience something contrary to what they said, you don’t equate it with the psychic so it doesn’t negatively reinforce your belief, and when you experience something completely different, you don’t connect it to the psychic at all. A lot of people don’t understand this concept at all, which is why they find “value” in what the psychic says. None of this changes the reality that the people pretending to give advice because they’re psychic, aren’t. I’ve been to psychics before. They don’t sit there and talk to you as if they’re giving advice. They frame their “advice” as if they see things you can’t because they have some special ability that you don’t. You’re completely ignoring the reality of what they do– and that they’re charging people for it– which is, in essence, fraud.
“For some reason you sound as if you feel like you are getting ripped off because you can’t make 50 thousand a year sitting on the phone “pretending” to be a psychic.”
If that’s what you think, then you’ve completely misunderstood where I’m coming from. Even if $50,000 a year seemed like a desirable salary to me, there are about a thousand things I’d do before I sat around on the phone pretending to be something I’m not.
“But honestly, its work…its hard work and its a service that people are actively seeking. Again I don’t believe in psychic phenomenon either, I’m not arguing the existence of it, but who am I to tell either of these people (the readers or the customers) that their beliefs are wrong?”
So now we live in a society where we should just all say, “Hey, if you’re stupid enough to drink the Kool-Aid, here’s a glass?”
“And who am I to tell them to talk to about these issues that they aren’t comfortable discussing with their closest friend (if they have friends). Nobody is getting ripped off here and you’re the only one getting angry. Have you tried asking yourself why you’re so angry?”
Again, I feel like maybe I’m starting to repeat myself…hrmm… They are buying a service from someone whom they believe have qualifications that the service provider doesn’t have. Yes, they are getting ripped off. Plain and simple.
It’s fine to have a “live and let live” perspective. But my real problem is that when these people are held up to any kind of scrutiny about the legitimacy of the service they saying they provide, their entire argument (much like yours) is a bunch of excuses as to why they’re valuable without every addressing the crux of the issue which I will succinctly restate one more time: They are selling a service under false pretenses.
If they wanted to sell the same service and call themselves “Advice givers” instead of “psychics,” then I’m all for that 100%. But using the word “psychic” is what brings them more clients because people believe they actually are psychic and that is manipulative no matter how much “good advice” they give.
Evan the Virgin added
Chris and Christine,
The crux of your argument is that since there are no real psychics, then selling a psychic service is a scam and a rip off. I agree with you that there are no psychics, I also believe that they don’t exist and that esp and clairvoyance and mediums are all a crock of shit. However I can’t prove that, nor has anybody, any scientist, any study conclusively dissproven it. If you believe they have, and have a source then I apologize that it is not worth your time to reveal it to me.
My point was not that lacking conclusive evidence disproving something makes it “true” rather that it cannot be definitively called “false” either. I understand that you don’t believe in psychics, however all of these people do. They like believing in psychics and they would like to spend their money on it. It’s not going to dawn on them when you point to some scientific study that “oh my god I’ve wasted my money!?” They are adults like you and me. On the flip side some of the customers I spoke with would even say things like “I’m pretty sure its all fake but I think its so fun!”
On the occasions where people became dissillussioned with the idea, or decided after a reading that it was indeed not worth it they received prompt refunds as a matter of policy.
Also to succinctly address you’re argument, the definition of false pretenses is “a deliberate misrepresentation of facts, as to obtain title to money or property.” Deliberate of course meaning intentional and knowing. These people believe they are offering the service they are being paid for, they may be wrong but they are not lying. They are not deliberately misrepresenting facts.
Chris, as far as bringing in legal questions, it will be a long time before the US government steps in to deny in any way the existence of psychic phenomena. They tend to stay away from legislating matters of faith and belief, something about the constitution or whatever. And if you’re going to argue that peddling faith is solely a not-for-profit venture then go ahead and pick up a copy of “The Purpose Driven Life.”
In fact if you’re going to condemn psychic hot lines you might also condemn The Secret, and other such tomes of nonsense. Books which I will never read but never the less will vehemently protect their right to be sold on shelves right next to the Bible. Speaking of books, I would only pick up a book on “how to argue” on two conditions:
1. All other books had been burned by Nazis.
and
2. I was interested in argument for the sake of winning, which I am not.
I just thought I would give people reading this thread and yourself the perspective of a bystander who was briefly employed by the company of which you speak. As a bystander I was given experience with the company, the psychics, and the customers which is more experience with this situation than either of you have.
And finally, stop worrying Christine none of your arguments have made me feel stupid. What might make you feel a bit dumb is that as I am writing this Google is serving an ad for “California Psychics” (also known as 1-800-Predict) right below your post. So if I click on that add, you too will be profiting from this so called “scam” are you going to send a check to the victims? Or would you like to donate it to the appropriate charity?
Thanks,
Evan
Mara the Peacemaker penned this
“Actually, that makes no sense. 1. There is no contradiction. They can believe they have the abilities, but if they REALLY don’t, they’re selling themselves under false pretenses. I can believe that I’m really Cleopatra, and you might be deluded enough to believe that I am, but that doesn’t mean it’s true.”
This is not entirely accurate. False pretenses means that a person is falsely representing a fact (here, that the person has psychic powers) with an intent to defraud or mislead based on the false mispresentation of that fact. If the “psychic” really believes that they possess psychic powers and advertises that way, they have not sold themselves under false pretenses.
“It’s not a question of whether they find value. Psychologically, if you believe you are talking to a psychic who is giving you advice, it is human nature to, when experiencing something that psychic predicted, allow the experience to reinforce your belief in psychics. When you experience something contrary to what they said, you don’t equate it with the psychic so it doesn’t negatively reinforce your belief, and when you experience something completely different, you don’t connect it to the psychic at all.”
Great point, Christine. As an aside, the same reasoning could be applied to refute religion. I suppose the overarching point is this: just because a person believes something and/or derives comfort in that something doesn’t make it true.
Christine the Lioness scribbled
First, let me explain something. This idea that if you can’t disprove something, it is as viable of an explanation for something as any other explanation, is simply ridiculous. If that is what you believe, then practically everything is true and logic completely goes out the window. If I propose that giant monsters came down from Mars and created dinosaurs and then killed them all off and went back to Mars, you can’t disprove my theory and therefore, under your assumption, it is as viable of a theory as evolution. It simply is not.
On the other hand, that’s irrelevant because psychic abilities have been disproven in every study that’s ever been conducted. If a psychic is truly psychic, then they would have their “special gift” 100% of the time. Meaning that ability could be tested in a controlled, laboratory environment. For example, I could hold up 25 cards each with one of four pictures on the back, and the psychic could tell me 100% of the time which picture is on which card. These tests have been done over and over and never has there been a psychic who could accomplish that– if you would like one example, check out the million dollar challenge the James Randi Educational Foundation has put out. They’ve offered a million dollars to the psychic who could replicate their own psychic ability in a controlled environment. Almost 150 psychics have tried (you can see a list of their names and which “companies” they work for on the JREF site), and not a single one has been able to do it.
While you might be inclined to say that doesn’t disprove psychic ability, it only disproves that those particular people don’t have psychic ability (maybe the one hundred and sixty-fifth person to try it will), that logic is severely flawed. If I drop an apple 150 different objects from a ladder and they all fall to the ground, is it logical to believe that the 164th object will not drop? Or is it more logical to believe that it will act the way all others did before it? If everyone operated under that guise, there would be no basis to make any decision on. There is enough data to make certain assumptions safe to believe.
If you and I picked a psychic– you could even pick him– and we tested his ability in a controlled environment to see if his power truly existed, would you be more willing to bet me $1,000 that he could prove he has his ability against my $1,000 that he doesn’t have the ability? While it’s sort of whimsical and fun to believe that anything is possible, the truth is, not everything is possible.
With regards to the definition of whether someone is selling a service under false pretenses (ie– whether they themselves truly believe they have this ability), I guess I would have to say that if I believed that I had the abililty to be psychic, and someone tested that ability in a controlled environment and I could not show that I was truly psychic, what basis do I have to still believe that I am? A feeling? To believe something after you’ve been shown it doesn’t exist, makes you deluded.
This is just as ludicrous as someone saying they can turn a glass of water to wine, and you say “Cool, go for it.” and they can’t, but yet they still want you to believe that they could under some other circumstance. It makes you quite gullible if you do.
With regards to customers who think it’s all fake, but still fun, they aren’t the ones I’m talking about. They are not deceived. But that doesn’t mean that other people aren’t being deceived because they think it’s real. By the way, when you try to put an argument together, it doesn’t work to find an exception and then try to imply that they are the norm. The ones who know it’s fake are irrelevant. We aren’t talking about them. We are talking about the ones who believe it’s real. Let’s stop trying to cloud the issue with something that doesn’t matter. If they called themselves “Psychic Pretenders” or “Psychic Fakers” then the psychics would be acknowledging it’s for entertainment purposes only as well. The problem is, they’re not. They’re implying it’s real because (1) they either believe it is real and are deluded themselves, or (2) they know it’s not real but they like making the money.
On a different note, I find the comparison to religion to be a bit odd. The basis of most religions is faith in a higher power even though there is no proof of it (hence, “faith” since it would be very easy to believe something you know to be proven true, right?). While you can try to draw a parallel between them by saying that people who go to psychics have “faith” in psychic ability, they aren’t the same. Someone is telling you that THEY have the psychic ability.
In addition, religions are based on the concept that each individual must make a personal choice to live by the doctrine of his/her religion and therefore will be rewarded in the afterlife. Believing in psychics has nothing to do with a personal choice and doing the right thing, etc. Fundamentally, they are nothing alike other than they both require you to have faith.
How is believing in psychics any different than believing in ghosts? And if we want to go that far, how is believing in ghosts any different than believing in vampires?
“I just thought I would give people reading this thread and yourself the perspective of a bystander who was briefly employed by the company of which you speak. As a bystander I was given experience with the company, the psychics, and the customers which is more experience with this situation than either of you have.”
Giving your perspective is welcomed. But honestly, don’t suggest that our very logical conclusions about this situation are invalid because we didn’t have the experience of working for a company that claims to sell psychic services. Again, that has nothing to do with anything and is just a simplistic way of trying to give yourself more credibility for having some insight that others don’t have.
“What might make you feel a bit dumb is that as I am writing this Google is serving an ad for “California Psychics” (also known as 1-800-Predict) right below your post. So if I click on that add, you too will be profiting from this so called “scam” are you going to send a check to the victims? Or would you like to donate it to the appropriate charity?”
And yes, I feel very “dumb” that google is reading these comments, and putting an ad on the site… Uh, huh??? I guess I’d feel dumb if I had no clue about how Google decides which ads to post. Oh wait. Oh shit. Actually, maybe one of the psychics is making it happen… oh my God… it’s a sign that psychic powers are real… it’s a sign! A sign! (insert spooky, ambient music here) LOL!
Mara the Peacemaker thought this
“With regards to the definition of whether someone is selling a service under false pretenses (ie– whether they themselves truly believe they have this ability), I guess I would have to say that if I believed that I had the abililty to be psychic, and someone tested that ability in a controlled environment and I could not show that I was truly psychic, what basis do I have to still believe that I am? A feeling? To believe something after you’ve been shown it doesn’t exist, makes you deluded.”
Well, yes perhaps that person is deluded, but false pretenses is all about people who have an intent to defraud or deceive. The person who believes they are psychic, no matter how deluded they are, does not possess that intent.
“The basis of most religions is faith in a higher power even though there is no proof of it (hence, “faith” since it would be very easy to believe something you know to be proven true, right?). While you can try to draw a parallel between them by saying that people who go to psychics have “faith” in psychic ability, they aren’t the same. Someone is telling you that THEY have the psychic ability.”
Well, faith is essentially belief in something that you 1) cannot see and 2) have no physical proof of its existence. So yes, people can have faith in “psychics” the same way they can have faith in “god.” The distinction that you’ve attempted to draw isn’t really significant for a couple of reasons. One, it’s irrelevant whether someone is telling you they have a psychic ability; what is important is that you believe it. If you are a person who believes in that sort of thing (mediums, psychics, etc), you’d be taking a leap of faith to believe that person. You don’t have definitive, objective proof but you believe it. Perhaps you say that isn’t faith, but delusion. Well, I say the same thing about religious people. I say they’re deluded, they say that they have faith. Second, most people come to believe in “god” through what someone else told them. So I fail the see the distinction you’re attempting to make between a person who has faith in god and a person who believes in psychics.
“In addition, religions are based on the concept that each individual must make a personal choice to live by the doctrine of his/her religion and therefore will be rewarded in the afterlife. Believing in psychics has nothing to do with a personal choice and doing the right thing, etc. Fundamentally, they are nothing alike other than they both require you to have faith.”
Well, the nuts and bolts of a religious system are really irrelevant. At the core, belief in religion (and more generally god) and in psychics both require a certain amount of faith. I think perhaps you are just prepared to see faith in one as more legitimate than the other. From my perspective, people who believe in religion/god are just as deluded as those who believe in psychics. I don’t see a difference between the two.
Mara the Peacemaker spake, and sayeth
Btw, my comparison to religion came from this reasoning:
“Psychologically, if you believe you are talking to a psychic who is giving you advice, it is human nature to, when experiencing something that psychic predicted, allow the experience to reinforce your belief in psychics. When you experience something contrary to what they said, you don’t equate it with the psychic so it doesn’t negatively reinforce your belief, and when you experience something completely different, you don’t connect it to the psychic at all.”
Religious people have the same rationale. Take the person who prays for a job, for example. The person doesn’t get the job. They reason that god didn’t want them to get that particular job or god is testing them or helping them to learn patience. If they get the job, god answered their prayer and blessed them with the job. If they won the lottery instead of getting the job, god had a completely different plan for them altogether. The reasoning is the same. Everything is done to reinforce one’s belief in their god no matter how utterly and completely ridiculous it may appear.
Christine the Lioness remarked
I actually agree with you 100%, Mara. All good points. And I see where you’re saying that they are technically not defrauding people– at least the ones who do believe they are psychic. I’m of the opinion, however, that a significant percentage of the people who apply to be psychics know they’re not. They see an application for this kind of work, like the idea of working from home and the potential of making what they feel is a lot of money, and think “I could do that… it’s easy.” And they apply and become psychics. Like Christopher mentioned earlier, one of his secretaries worked for that company as a psychic for a while and they gave her a book of responses to use as a guideline when she was talking to people. If MOST were actually psychic, why would they even consider a need to print a book teaching you how to do it?
With regards to your points about religion, I see where you could view both as being deluded and I’m definitely not implying that being deluded by organized religion is any better than being deluded by psychics although I agree it’s much more accepted. And yes, religious people do use the exact same rationale to reinforce their beliefs.
I don’t want to get into the distinction of “spirituality” vs. “religion” here, but we should make a difference between the belief that psychic phenomenon is possible (or that there exists a higher power) and people who are using that belief as a base for manipulation even if they themselves believe it (ie– “psychics” or even the Pope. I’m sure the Pope believes in Catholic doctrine but does the church manipulate the beliefs of Catholic to ensure its survival by suggesting they need to donate to the church be a good Catholic? Yes.)
Christopher the Pyro quibbed this
The reason religion & psychics are different is because religion up front tells you that you need to have faith in order for it to work, and psychics tell you up front that they are telling you the future which is the future regardless of faith. One is being passed of as a factual future regardless of the customers opinion. That is not similar to religion in any sense… Also I would go as far to say as CA Psychics know they aren’t hiring psychics and the people who work there know they aren’t psychics.. my secretary worked there.. she herself has told me it’s ridiculous.. (and while she agreed that she did help people) she also said she obviously can’t tell the future.. I mean why would anybody who could tell the future work a $12 an hour job? … or for that matter any job.. within a week you could be the richest person in the world… heck within a day.
Mara the Peacemaker scribbled
“I don’t want to get into the distinction of “spirituality” vs. “religion” here, but we should make a difference between the belief that psychic phenomenon is possible (or that there exists a higher power) and people who are using that belief as a base for manipulation even if they themselves believe it (ie– “psychics” or even the Pope. I’m sure the Pope believes in Catholic doctrine but does the church manipulate the beliefs of Catholic to ensure its survival by suggesting they need to donate to the church be a good Catholic? Yes.)”
I agree and it seems like you have more of an issue with the people who perhaps use a person’s belief in “psychis,” etc as a way to manipulate (make money, etc). At least that is the gist I got from your last few posts.
Mara the Peacemaker quibbed this
“The reason religion & psychics are different is because religion up front tells you that you need to have faith in order for it to work, and psychics tell you up front that they are telling you the future which is the future regardless of faith.”
I don’t see the difference or at least, not as you’ve suggested here. The person who consults a psychic must have faith in order to believe that the psychic has the ability to tell the future. The psychic claims to tell the future in the same way that religion claims to the tell the truth (or that Jesus was actually god in the flesh or that bushes can spontaneously catch on fire without being consumed and talk).
To believe in either (since neither is supported by any physical evidence) requires a leap of faith. To be clear, my focus is not on what the psychic says — it is if the person believes what they say. It doesn’t take any sort of faith to believe in the future, but it does to believe a person’s ability to foretell the future.
“One is being passed of as a factual future regardless of the customers opinion. That is not similar to religion in any sense… ”
I fail to see how this differs from religion. Religion purports to pass off all sorts of things as FACT without any regard for the consumer’s opinion.
Names and emails are required (emails aren't displayed), url's are optional.
