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Ben2 the Soldier (56) ProphetJoe the Irreverent uttered
Oh, I’m in total agreement with you, ‘tine (and welcome back to the good ‘ole USA!) I happen to work in Admissions at a large midwestern University and the same thing happens in this state. The liberals don’t want to “disadvantage a minority student just because they weren’t born here” — yes, that’s the explanation I got from a senior official here. I wanted to say “are you f*cking serious?”, but (since I wanted to keep my job with the state) it came out more like “Oh… so it all about diversity ratios.”
I also find it ironic that Asians are such a large percentage of our student population that the Administration (here) no longer considers it necessary to recruit them. They (and whites) are now considered “mainstream” whereas the other ethnicities are now called “underrepresented minorities”.
IMO, admissions criteria at a major university aren’t really based upon merit anymore unless, of course, you are a clumsy, white male. If you are a female, an athlete, or the member of a minority, then the standards for admissions are different.
Christine the Lioness scribbled
I understand the thinking behind diversity ratios, I really do. But I think any time you admit someone or give them an advantage over others simply because of their race or gender, you’re doing that person– as well as the population– a disservice and bringing down the quality of collective performance.
My bigger issue with the illegal immigrants being able to go to school at a “discounted, special” tuition rate has more to do with what’s fair. If you haven’t paid taxes and contributed to the pot, it’s not fair to everyone else who has that you get to benefit from it.
Christopher the Pyro commented
Diversity ratios are racist and create more negative feelings between the races.. if the fact was everybody was equal and got equal treatment and the standard for getting int was strictly performance not only would the population as a whole be better served but race relations would improve because when someone makes it to college and they are a minority it would be assumed they earned it from hard work and not given a free ride at someone who did do the hard work expense.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent said this
I agree with both of you 
Christine the Lioness said this
Well… we can’t really ignore why diversity ratios were put into place to begin with. There have been countless instances where a group of white men have sat around and decided that they don’t want anyone but white men to be allowed into their club, their school, their associations, their sports teams, etc. Those requirements were put forth because the group in power WASN’T choosing people on their merit. They were choosing people based on gender and ethnicity.
Things are different now, and much of the power has been taken away from those small groups who were keeping people out, I feel diversity requirements now create more problems than positives. But had those in power not been racist to begin with, there would have been no need for diversity ratios.
Mara the Peacemaker quibbed this
“if the fact was everybody was equal and got equal treatment and the standard for getting int was strictly performance not only would the population as a whole be better served.”
That would be wonderful. The problem is, things will never be equal. Even standards like strict performance purport equality but aren’t really as you can always pick standards and what not that favor a particular group. You see this for example in a lot of gender discrimination employment cases where the employer doesn’t say they won’t recruit females but they make the standards such that almost no female could meet them. On the surface it looks fair and equal but it isn’t really. Of course the problem with that scenario (and perhaps rightly so) is that a lot of discrimination laws don’t inquire into motive. So as long as it looks okay, you don’t have a problem. But just because something looks equal doesn’t always mean that it is.
Mara the Peacemaker stated
Oh, but regarding this bill, yes this is ridiculous. It’s one thing to treat everyone within our borders with dignity regardless of their immigration status. And I’m for that. I don’t think people should be denied food, shelter and medical care because of their immigration status. However, I DO have a problem with favoring illegal immigrants over U.S. citizens when it is the citizens that support this country. I got into an argument with someone about this at a barbecue a few weeks ago…this person basically argued that illegal immigrants form the backbone of our society because they take the jobs that Americans don’t want and allow themselves to be exploited — I can’t remember what else he said, but basically, he argued that exploitation allows businesses to reap bigger profits which makes America richer. Okay, so there are so many issues with that argument like for one, the businesses that reap the profits are not necessarily passing those profits along to anyone else so that only people getting richer are those who exploit. Maybe the businesses consume more and that spurs the economy. Okay fine. But what really irritated me was this person’s failure to ignore that what funds our society are, in large part, that tax dollars that pay for our roads, our schools, medical system, etc. Without hardworking and taxpaying Americans none of that would be possible. So yes, it’s totally bogus that illegal immigrants reap the benefits of in-state tuition while American citizens don’t. It’s ridiculous.
Christine the Lioness hunt n' pecked this
I’ve heard that same bizarre argument about illegal immigrants forming the backbone blah blah blah. Another major flaw with that argument, in addition to the ones you brought up, is that what kind of society are we if we condone people being exploited so that businesses can reap bigger profits? If that’s the case, we certainly aren’t a society that believes in treating everyone with dignity and respect then, are we? My thoughts on this are… if you are working in this country, you deserve at least minimum wage for whatever job you do. If businesses have a problem paying between $3.50 and $8.50 per hour, then they need to rethink their business plan because if you can’t afford to pay your employees at least that, you aren’t running a business that can be profitable under our laws. And yes, everyone here deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. But that doesn’t mean that everyone deserves to be here just because they want to be.
As taxes pay for public education, free medical clinics, etc., I don’t feel you have a right to those services if you are not part of the group that helps to support them. The problem is… they keep coming because we continue to provide these services for free. Since it’s been determined that people cannot really subsist below the minimum wage (hence, why one was established in each state), these people are proving they can subsist at below minimum wage because they are getting these free services to supplement what they could not otherwise afford– housing, education, medical care.
What would happen to our system if everyone decided to stop paying for health insurance and just decided to utilize the free clinics and have free health care? I’m guessing the health care system would either collapse, or we would need to suddenly raise our taxes significantly to support it.
I certainly don’t mind paying more (as in my taxes are higher than those of someone who makes considerably less) toward a free public health care system that helps people who do not make enough money to afford health care. But those systems were set up to help our citizens, not the citizens of other countries. That’s what foreign aid is for.
Christopher the Pyro pontificated
2+2 will always be 4. We can’t move the bar because some people are better educated then others.. that leads to the dumbing down of society.
Christopher the Pyro thought this
The consumer is also served by cheaper labor prices… this is why we import so much stuff from China.. the fact is do you want to pay $10 for a container of strawberries.. I don’t. There are economical realities that need to be observed at least acknowledged.
Mara the Peacemaker commented
“2+2 will always be 4. We can’t move the bar because some people are better educated then others.. that leads to the dumbing down of society.”
Your 2+2 analogy doesn’t work in a flawed system.
It’s not about “dumbing down society” or moving the bar as you call it. The bar can always be moved — it’s not as if the standards chosen are set in stone or are inherently universal in some way. They aren’t. A system based on meritocracy isn’t an objective one and that’s a faulty as well as naive assumption many people make. A merit system is just as biased as one that is based on other things like diversity. It just looks comes in a prettier and easy to swallow package.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent got all philosophical
I’m not sure I *totally* agree with your stance, Mara. The very reason ACT and SAT came about was to develop a standard admissions test which tested everyone “fairly and accurately”. I recognize that a group of “white men” creating the test may result in a test which is biased against women or minorities, but let’s fix the tests not change the admissions evaluation process (which is what we have been doing for years).
For years higher-ed used a formula which included the standard test score, the class rank and the GPA to determine qualifications for admission. Now those formulas have been modified to include parameters such as: ethnicity, gender, in-state/out-of-state mix, etc. At my University, we’ve been (internally) mandated to increase our out-of-state admissions 10% in the next 3 years — not for diversity reasons, but because of declining revenues! Even though the people of this state pay much of the cost of running the place, many in-state kids will not be admitted because we want more money from the out-of-staters… how is that even remotely fair? It’s not. Furthermore, folks, what it comes down to is this: Institutional professions such as education, politics, religion, journalism, medicine and the legal profession, are now really BIG BUSINESS. They are in it for the almighty dollar, and not for the noble causes which we once associated with helping society as a whole. There are noble practitioners in each, to be sure, but as a whole, those industries are now driven by the dollar more than they are anything else. If you believe otherwise, then Christopher has a marketing lesson for you…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent scribbled
Well, I *might* exclude religion from that list because of their “good works” and I might exclude politics because they are motivated more by power than money…
Mara the Peacemaker up'n wrote this
“The very reason ACT and SAT came about was to develop a standard admissions test which tested everyone “fairly and accurately”.
This actually supports my point more than it does yours. Sure the test itself is biased to some degree but I’m not actually talking about the bias within the test per se. The fact that testing is used at all is a biased value judgment, not an objective one (there are some institutions of higher education that do not give their students tests at all, for example). Some or most universities use tests while others use some other criteria. In order for meritocracy to work, you have to assign merit to SOMETHING but what counts as merit is not some objective thing. The test scores may be objective (though arguments can be made against this point) but the decision to place value on those test scores is not. That’s a subjective determination. A system based on merit reflects what those who make the rules or have the power value. I’m not arguing that it’s wrong to place merit on certain things; my point is that we shouldn’t delude ourselves into thinking that that particular type of system is any more objective or fair than another. It isn’t.
When I said the bar could always be moved, I wasn’t saying change the admissions process. My argument is much broader than that. My point is that the bar itself is not objective. It’s a value judgment and like any other value judgment, it can be moved to something else. In other words, it’s not so inherently special that it can never be moved. It will be when we decide that we value some other criteria more.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent hunt n' pecked this
Mara said: “My point is that the bar itself is not objective. It’s a value judgment and like any other value judgment, it can be moved to something else. In other words, it’s not so inherently special that it can never be moved. It will be when we decide that we value some other criteria more.”
I disagree. I can look at (for example) a female minority student from a depressed metropolitan center and say “she earned a 2.75/4.00 gpa in high school”. That is a fact. I can also look at the conditions of her education and the plight of her social condition and say “she deserves a chance”. That would be the truth. The difference between a fact and the truth is that the former is objective and the latter is subjective.
When I look at her ACT score, her class rank and her GPA, I do so for a statistical reason. We plug those “scores” into a formulary and assign each applicant a predicted GPA. This is the GPA they should (statistically-speaking) attain at the University based on their grades in high school and what curriculum they’ve chosen in their application. If their predicted GPA is, for example, 20% higher than the required GPA for that college, then they would be offered admission. If not, then the likelihood is that they will fail or dropout of the University before they graduate. It is based upon years of historical experience (plus a dash of mojo and a smidge of voodoo).
When you start subjectively using non-academic parameters in the guidelines for admission, you’ve lost the objectivity of the statistical analysis. I would even argue that your last statement — “It will be [moved] when we decide that we value some other criteria more.” — is a de facto definition of subjectivity.
Mara the Peacemaker scribbled
“I can look at (for example) a female minority student from a depressed metropolitan center and say “she earned a 2.75/4.00 gpa in high school”. That is a fact. I can also look at the conditions of her education and the plight of her social condition and say “she deserves a chance”. That would be the truth. The difference between a fact and the truth is that the former is objective and the latter is subjective.”
PJ, did you see the part of my post where I said the test scores are objective? You missed my point. Facts are objective. I never disputed that. What I SAID is that the value you assign to certain facts or rather, how you interpret those facts is not objective. What you decide to do with certain facts (e.g., you decide that a student deserves a second chance or you decide the student does not) is subjective. It is a value judgment you assign to something and THAT is subjective. The fact that you decide to use test scores at all is a subjective determination, not an objective one. Test scores only mean what we say they mean. Grades only mean what we say they mean. If you are an institution of higher learning that places no merit on grades, then grades in that scenario have no value. Yes, the student earned the grades and the fact doesn’t change, but unless a value is placed on those grades, they have no inherent meaning.
“When you start subjectively using non-academic parameters in the guidelines for admission, you’ve lost the objectivity of the statistical analysis.”
No, I haven’t. You assume that the statistical analysis means something in and of itself. It doesn’t. It has no inherent value. While the ANALYSIS might be objective (you would have to account for the biases within the model, etc), the interpretation of that analysis isn’t. I have a bunch of test scores from students applying to my school. So what? They don’t mean anything until I’ve assigned some sort of value of them. The fact that I’ve decided to assign a value to them at all is a subjective determination. I decide to value test scores as opposed to something else.
Meritocracy reflects what we find meritorious. It’s subjective like anything else.
Ivy the Soldier quibbed this
I ran into this issue in our public school district here. My son has a speech issue. One that caused him trouble when it came to reading, learning to read and moving forward this year.. MOF they were planning on holding him back at christmas time.. My son was in kindergarten. However.. The school district is suppose to provide free aide to those kids who need it to help them get to where they need to be.. I was told they could not offer my child this help because they were “full”. They did not have the resources available to help my child as there were many other children who were behind as well. And the exact words were,”some can’t even speak english. We must put our resources there to get these students to where they need to be”. These students ARE illegal immigrants. Their parents are not legal. They do not even try to speak english in their homes. My son has a learning disability. He was no where near where he needed to be to graduate kindergarten. They were not willing to help get him to where he needs to be and its ONLY KINDERGARTEN! I put in extra time and money to see him succeed and even though he did graduate kindergarten it was still below average for where he needed to be. I pay taxes here.. And yet my kid still cant get what he needs from the system because i’m not a “minority”. I’m a married white woman in her 20s with 4 kids.. My kids are not an issue because of such. Only thing that pulls me out of the running for “rich” around here is that we are a 1 income family and have 4 kids.. otherwise i’d be a “rich” white girl who doesnt need the school to help her out.. I worry about the message our school district is sending here.. I went up there and saw who they are working one on one with.. Talked to the principal, counselor, teachers, etc.. Every child is suppose to be promised the same education. We pay taxes for that reason. But it doesnt work like that.. I worry if they are letting kids fall behind in kindergarten.. What next year is going to be like when he is in first grade.. Right now my son hates me because I work and work and work with him trying my best to get him prepared and get him to be where he needs to be because the school has failed at doing so.. Yet they remind me he is behind other kids but do not want to help do something about it.. sorry for the rambling.. It just ticks me off because I see this shit first hand..
Christine the Lioness commented
Ivy… your situation with your son is living proof of my point. The resources should be allocated to your son– not to illegal immigrants. Resources are limited, which is why we can’t just open the borders to everyone. As sucky as it must’ve been to keep people from overfilling the lifeboats after the Titanic went down, letting everyone pile on would have led to sinking the lifeboat and all the lives on board would have been lost.
I’m actually working on a project right now about children with autism and have interviewed several parents who have gone through what you are with the “full” special needs classes. Two of the parents got lawyers and sued the district just to get their children the free aids they were legally supposed to have. I don’t blame you for being pissed.
JMC the Virgin quibbed this
Well, this was a lot to read, and I must admit I just skimmed most of it, but it pertains to a post I wrote about the illegal immigration and public education. In a comment to my post is a link to an article that spells out the costs to Americans. Of course, they don’t include the costs to the American’s whose spots at colleges and universities are being given to illegals.
Trouble the Pirate remarked
You guys better quit it before someone mistakes this for an intellectual site… Welcome to the inherent problem of being a Socialist country
ProphetJoe the Irreverent said this
Mara: mea culpa… I did misread (or misunderstand) your comment about test scores. I *thought* you were arguing (essentially) that test scores were subjective because the tests were biased. Again, my apologies. I think I see your point: any “objective value” is conceived from a “subjective methodolgy” — correct?
[note to self: stop arguing with legal-minds about the color of gray ]
Ivy: you argument goes to the heart of the matter. It doesn’t even matter if illegals were a part of the equation. The school district OWES your son the learning resources required by law. If I were you, I’d be looking for a sympathetic attorney who might be willing to take your case (perhaps even pro bono). The illegal immigration aspect only makes it worse. It highlights the drain on the government and social resources caused by granting illegal aliens equals rights under the law.
Rumor has it that someone is expected to step down from the SCOTUS before long and Bush will be able to appoint another strict constructionist to the Court. I hope so. Liberal ideology has run amok on the Court and in the education system for too long, but that’s just my opinion.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent remarked
Trouble said: “You guys better quit it before someone mistakes this for an intellectual site…”
See what happens when ‘tine returns. We get socially relevant topics! Oh, what the hell, I’m not fooling anyone. ‘topher, don’t you have any more gratuitous cleavage pixs??
Christine the Lioness mentioned
Actually, he does, PJ. But those particular photos are for his eyes only. hehe. And Trouble, don’t worry, darlin’. NO ONE is going to mistake this for an intellectual site… trust me.
Christopher the Pyro chimed in with
PJ, you read my mind.. Boobs will always dumb down a conversation. While I agree mostly with what everybody is saying I would like to raise a point about the illigals, education and the system as a whole.
The educational system is clearly broken, here in California we spend over 50 billion a year on education yet have the second worst education level for our students and a horrible graduation rate, clearly liberal ideals when it comes to education while extremely sensitive to the individual can punish the collective. My opinion shoring up our boarders and stopping the massive inflow of non-english speakers would probably help quite a bit. It’s just not possible to each people speaking 2 languages efficiently, without being willing to eradicate one of the languages. Clearly we do not have the backbone to force people to stop speaking Spanish, nor do we wish to truly stop the flow of our slave labors. Because of these things I am not as much against the idea of immigrants going to college as the rest of you, mostly because anything that forces people to integrate into society is a good thing. If you go to college you will speak English, go to American parties, take up American traditions and basically it is a step in the right direction. It is so much better than not ever integrating these people into society and simply put I’m not sure if our economy can handle exporting all the illegals so I think what is important to me is to seal the borders as much as possible, deport criminal illegals, and integrate everybody else. I’m not for offering citizenship unless some very strict criteria is meant.. but I’m not 100% against it. However I would not allow the use of public schools nor would I allow the use of medical facilities as this would dampen the desire to come here.. but if someone did come here and their parents worked hard sent their child to private school and that child went to college… then so be it. You don’t get much more American than that.
Mara the Peacemaker commented
“I think I see your point: any “objective value” is conceived from a “subjective methodolgy” — correct?”
Consider the SAT test for example. When designing the test, you don’t start from an objective standpoint. You have already decided before designing the test what skills, etc a successful/smart, etc student will have. So you design the test to measure those skills and abilities. At first blush the test looks objective but that is impossible because, as you put it, the test was conceived from a “subjective methodology.” I don’t necessarily think this is a bad thing. We need some sort of system or criteria to weed out because we can’t hire or admit everyone and you should be able to set certain standards.
Anywho, this is sooooo not about illegal immigration. On to more important topics such as the apparent disappearance of Threesome Thursdays…..
Christine the Lioness pontificated
Christopher… I’m not sure I get how that all works together. Obviously “slave laborers” who are coming here because they can’t get ahead in Mexico aren’t going to have the money to send their children to private schools and get health insurance to cover medical costs. Those that have that kind of money– come here legally because if that kind of person applies, the government gives them a visa much more readily. So yes, closing up the borders is a great idea, but considering we’ve done such an amazingly successful job at that in the last ten years, even after the post-9/11 panic, I don’t foresee that as a very viable possibility. And letting the “slave laborers” come here and then deny them medical care only increases the chances that they will bring and spread disease– something else I’d prefer didn’t happen. The only answer is really to send them back slowly but surely and force the companies that hire illegals to pay the extra few bucks to hire American citizens or people with work visas. Sure it’s the Federal Government’s job to keep illegals out, but we should also enforce the laws against hiring illegals just like we enforce the laws that they can’t hire children and they can’t sell alcohol to minors. If the fine for hiring illegals made the potential savings not worth the risk, companies would stop. No work, no reason to come here.
Christine the Lioness quibbed this
And oh yeah… Threesome Thursdays… but today is Tuesday… however, I think we should revive that. Christopher, you pick the email to answer this time… I’m sure there are some good ones still in your in-box.
Christine the Lioness commented
Here’s another little piece of information I find interesting… according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons at http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp 23% of Federal inmates are non-U.S. citizens convicted of crimes other than being in the country illegally. 16% of those inmates are citizens of Mexico. So deporting illegals would also have a positive impact on our overcrowded prison system. Keep in mind this is federal prisons only… it doesn’t include the number of illegals who committed crimes and are serving time in state prisons.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent got all philosophical
Fascinating stats, Christine!
I knew that drug-related offenses were the cause of most Federal prison sentences (54%), but I found it interesting the 11% of the prisoners were in for “Immigration” offenses while only 3% were there for “Murder, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping”. Very revealing indeed.
Back in my youth, the “conventional wisdom” was that most illegal drugs (”Acapulco Gold”) came through Mexico. So, in theory, if we could stop the illegal flow of drugs and the illegal flow of immigrants, we could potentially eliminate 75% of the inmates in Federal prisons. Sounds like a great reason to build a wall, Mr. President!
ProphetJoe the Irreverent thought this
or consider that there are only 97 prisoners incarcerated because of national security offenses as opposed to more than 33,000 Mexican nationals in our Federal prison system… seems like maybe illegal immigration IS a national security issue after all!
max the Virgin mentioned
You’re wrong about illegals not paying state taxes… CA has a sales tax of 8.25% and illegals who live here obviously pay that tax everyday. Also, not having a SSN does not prevent someone from filing taxes and many illegals file taxes and pay them every year. As opposed to someone who has not ever been a resident of CA and has never contributed to the ‘pot’
ProphetJoe the Irreverent up'n wrote this
OK, Max, then let’s say they aren’t paying a majority of the taxes the rest of us pay. They aren’t contributing to FICA because they often work on a “cash basis”. They aren’t filing state or federal income taxes, and so on. They fact that they MUST pay sales tax at the point of the transaction is merely circumstantial, not reflective of their active, willing participation in the taxing process.
Christine the Lioness pontificated
Max… are you kidding? Seriously, I can’t say it any better than PJ just did but come on… EVERYONE pays sales tax. Including out-of-state students who walk into a store in California and buy a notebook. So maybe paying “SALES TAX” isn’t really a way to determine who contributes to the “pot.”
And I don’t know many illegals who are willingly going to the government and handing over wages and saying “Oh by the way… I’m here illegally, so you have no record of me… but here’s some money to contribute to that state and federal tax thing you guys have going.”
And also… using someone else’s social security number so that you “appear” legal and therefore pay taxes because you’re operating under the radar, doesn’t make you noble. They’re not doing that so they can contribute their fair share. They’re doing that so that they’re less likely to get caught.
uh, nice try though. Keep working on that argument and get back to us once you have it worked out.
Christopher the Pyro uttered
“You’re wrong about illegals not paying state taxes… CA has a sales tax of 8.25% and illegals who live here obviously pay that tax everyday. Also, not having a SSN does not prevent someone from filing taxes and many illegals file taxes and pay them every year. As opposed to someone who has not ever been a resident of CA and has never contributed to the ‘pot’”
This is actually somewhat true.. we have had illegals pay taxes with fake ss #’s they just never get a refund… it’s probably more common then you think many illegals who want to be legal are willing to pay taxes if it will get them citizenship the illegals are not always trying to skirt the tax laws.. the laws just suck.
Mara the Peacemaker up'n wrote this
“his is actually somewhat true.. we have had illegals pay taxes with fake ss #’s they just never get a refund”
Well, not only that, but there’s a lot of fraud that goes on and the government agencies aren’t the best at communicating with one another to verify information though occasionally, someone over at immigration gets wind of something from a person’s tax documents and reports it to the IRS. I work in immigration law and we had a company that was trying to petition someone for a work visa. To make a long story short, it turned out that the company had hired illegal immigrants but on the company’s W-2s, the people looked legit — they have SSN’s, their addresses, etc. Every now and then, immigration will report those individuals to the IRS because if there is immigration fraud, tax fraud is also probably an issue (like, the company is really paying these people under their table, but for tax purposes, are listing them on their W-2s and schedules or the company is producing fradulent W-2s for immigration and sending an entirely different set to the IRS, etc).
It’s a gamble and some of the companies that do this are betting that neither agency will catch them. It’s really something.
Christine the Lioness uttered
Then both the illegals and the companies taking part in that are committing crimes. Plain and simple. It is illegal to come here without a visa. It is illegal to hire someone who is not legal to work in this country. It’s illegal to use a fake social security number for anything. All of those things are illegal. This idea that they are somehow really contributing more because other people get refunds and they don’t is ridiculous. Are they really paying so much in taxes that it repays the state for giving them maternity health care for even ONE child? It costs approximately $40,000 to have a child. Even at a high tax bracket, they’d have to be making over $100,000 a year for their taxes to reimburse the government for the cost of having one child. And I don’t know about the illegals you know… but the ones I see are having more than just one baby for sure.
If you do the math, these people are not contributing anywhere near a “fair share.” And to try to suggest that they somehow are is insulting to the rest of us who actually do pay for taxes, health insurance, etc.
Mara the Peacemaker spake, and sayeth
Well, Christine, I’m not saying they do pay their fair share (I don’t really know that I have an opinion on this), BUT I’m not following your reasoning about reimbursing the govt for the cost of having children.
If an illegal immigrant is working under a fake SSN and is truly withholding taxes from their pay, then they are, in fact, paying taxes and depending on how much is being taken out, they might be paying what those who are here legally in the same tax bracket pay. The fact that they are here illegally doesn’t change that. I mean, does everyone who is here legally and paying taxes, paying so much that they reimburse the govt? Certainly not since those in the lowest income brackets who pay very little and those in the upper tax brackets pay more of the taxes anyway.
Christopher the Pyro up'n wrote this
Mara, I agree with your take on this when they are paying taxes.
However all the actions are illegal and as a society we shouldn’t condone them.
Mara the Peacemaker mentioned
Oh I don’t condone it at all. I was just saying that some of the fraud that occurs is really crazy.
Christine the Lioness asserted
Yes, but the government doesn’t let me have babies for free while they pick up the tab. I pay health insurance and copays, and even with that, there are minimums.
If you’re “paying taxes” under a fake social, you still go to free clinics and keep your health records under your own name which qualifies you for free services because your real name doesn’t connect to the name/social you’re using.
Again it goes back to the idea that Americans are cool with using taxes to pay for free services for AMERICANS who are having a hard time and struggling. What isn’t fair, is that it seems like illegals who are paying taxes under fake socials want some sort of cookie for doing so. Nothing like wanting praise for doing the bare minimum. These people aren’t paying taxes so that they can help pay for the services they’re using. They’re doing it as a strategy to avoid getting caught. What’s worse is that the lower middle class AMERICANS work their butts off too, pay taxes, AND have to pay for their own health insurance because they don’t qualify for freebies… and they’re doing it LEGALLY.
I’d happily forsake the piddly amount of taxes the illegals pay into the system if they’d all just decide to go back home… Honestly, I don’t think anything would fall apart if we didn’t have their tax money and things would get a lot better if they weren’t draining the system through our health care and public education.
Mara the Peacemaker got all philosophical
Christine, I still don’t get your reasoning. You said “These people aren’t paying taxes so that they can help pay for the services they’re using. They’re doing it as a strategy to avoid getting caught.” That doesn’t change whether the taxes they do pay help to support those services that they may use. If they are paying taxes, then they are contributing to the system, albeit illegally, but contributing nonetheless.
But at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter if illegal immigrants are contributing or not. It doesn’t matter if they drain the system or not. There are people who wait years just to get a green card and even more to obtain citizenship lawfully. We have immigration LAWS for a reason.
Christine the Lioness spake, and sayeth
Exactly. Which is why I’m saying that the reasoning people use as an excuse to justify that they are “contributing” like everyone else and therefore somehow not draining the system, is crap. Besides the fact it’s irrelevant because they’re breaking the law, they aren’t “paying for themselves” the way supporters try to make it seem like they are.
They simply *aren’t* paying back what they’re using. My point was… if it costs $40,000 in maternity care to have a child here, they’d have to be paying that in taxes to make up for what they’re using by having only ONE child. They are not. Even if they contribute (as some do), they contribute LESS than what it costs to provide for them. Hence we end up with a negative number.
In addition– and unrelated– I also have issues with supporters trying to make it seem like these people should somehow be treated the same as we are because they are paying taxes just like us, as if they’re some sort of altruistic bunch that have the choice to not pay taxes because they’re illegal but because they’re such good people, they’re paying anyway. I’ve heard that argument so many times… “But a lot of them are paying taxes and they’re not getting anything in return for it because they’ll never get to draw social security, blah, blah, blah. Boo-hoo-hoo.”
Nothing in return??? Do you have any idea how much I’VE paid into social security since I started working at age 16? And chances are the system will collapse before I’m old enough to draw on it. How can they say they’re getting nothing in return when they’re getting free health care, free public education, etc? It’s a lot more than many working class Americans get for free.
Christine the Lioness quibbed this
By the way… just as a side note… interestingly enough Mexico has as bad of an illegal immigration problem as we do. But they’re handling theirs differently.
“Guatemalan migration officials in Tecun Uman estimate that every day 1,000-2,000 Central and South Americans cross the 930-mile-long border into Mexico. But an average of 200 are deported daily, more than 60,000 per year.”
Maybe we need to learn from Mexico itself.
Christopher the Pyro said this
I was going to comment again on this until my illigal immigrant maids showed up… it would now just be hipicritcal to say anything.. well at least until tomorrow when I forget all about that.
Sam the Virgin quibbed this
Hi this goes for Ms. Christine…
I see the point that you are making and trying to make I sad that your image of immigrants is not a good one…My mother came to the U.S. illegally up to today she is still not a legal resident of the United States I wish she was that way she could have a better payibg job and could report taxes. I thank her for having brought us (me and my sisters) to the U.S. yes it may seem unfair that illegal immigrants get free public education and that we pay the in-state tuition and that you had to pay more than that….I apologize I wish that you could understan the reasons as to hy my mom being a single mother brought us here…I cannot and I do not plan to make you change your mind on immigration but I do wish that you could take the time to try to understan why people like my mother come to the United States.
Yes some do it for a better life more work better pay yeah I agree but NOT ALL immigrants have those reasons. My mother came to the U.S. to provide us with a better education to be in an environment in which we will have the opportunity to become someone to be what we could of never be in our home town. I really do LOVE this country it has become a part of me I was small when we got here (two yrs old to be exact) I started skul here, I graduated from high school here in the U.S. and I am proud of that because I achieve something BIG in my life. Now I am currently attending a local community college so that I can transfer to a four year university. I want to get a Masters as a Social Worker. Moreover, I SUPPORT THE AB 540, yes I somehow benefit from it as well as hundreds of others who WANT to do something positive with their lives NOT all of us that are here do bad things…..I really hope that you can understan what I am trying to say and I respect your opinion you are more than entitled to express what you feel Thank you for your time…
Christine the Lioness added
Hey Sam.
Actually, I do completely understand why immigrants from Mexico and Central/South America come here. It is obviously for a better life and I’ve traveled enough to know that they can indeed have a better one here. It’s no big secret and definitely no epiphany. But hey… there are things I want too that I can’t have because they are illegal. Just because I want them, doesn’t mean I should just get them.
No one said all immigrants are here to do bad things. But the act in and of itself of immigrating here illegally, is ILLEGAL. Plain and simple.
My Spanish tutor that I had for a year and a half came here illegally ten years ago from Guatemala. He’s now a US citizen who pays taxes. Although I don’t agree with what he did, I certainly understand WHY he came here and I also commend him for going through the process to become LEGAL– unlike your mother. I’m sure you do support AB540 because it benefits you. Everyone supports the things the benefit them. This is no big surprise.
Listen, it’s not a question of understanding why people do what they do. If someone is starving and they steal food, you’d have to be a moron not to understand why they did it. That doesn’t mean they chose the proper way of solving their problem.
And while there are immigrants here who will do a lot of good for our society, in general, illegal immigration does NOT benefit society. If it did, it would be legal. The laws against immigration didn’t just drop from the clouds. They were adopted for a reason and as much as you’d like to ignore those reasons, they exist.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent scribbled
Once again Christine has gone and dragged the conversation into the gutter by talking about morality, decency, good citizenship and compassion for her fellow man…
Let’s put this post back on par — where are the BQQB pictures?? Christopher — get your 
ready!
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