Aivar the Groupie added

but you have to think that USA is the 3rd nation by population (im not completely sure) with only India and China ahead. Also Americans are so much more richer so

How much does stuff cost there?

A litre of milk costs 7 EEK thats 2.27187546 U.S. dollars per US gallon

Gasoline here costs 17 (Estonian kroons per litre) = 5.51741183 U.S. dollars per US gallon

a 3 room appartment here costs around 1 500 000 Estonian kroons = 128 607 U.S. dollars

All electronics are pretty much more expensive here like cell phones or computers etc by all the ads i have seen when watching American channels on satelite or well ads online. Cars are a lot more cheaper in the states aswell…

June 25th, 2007

Aivar the Groupie uttered

100 000$ per year lmao thats 8333$ a month and half the people dont earn that much in a year here…

anyway i don’t have anything against USA myself though i do not like the decisions taken by the leadership you have right now and well there are idiots everywhere and all the Americans i have met in person have always been incredibly nice.

Right now its a very popular thing to be against the states or hate Bush for example and when i ask why most people can’t explain their dislike and i have actually heard a girl say “but everyone says he is bad and the war with Iraq is bad”….

To me growing up the states have been like whats cool and where all the coolest things come from

June 25th, 2007

Aivar the Groupie chimed in with

and there should be a bloody edit button or something.

I think no matter how much you give to charity and what you do you still will be bashed. If you get involved somewhere you get bashed for it and while you dont get involved you get bashed aswell for not helping. All the money Americans give to charity is also pretty much taken for granted…

June 25th, 2007

Abysium the Soldier hunt n' pecked this

America should give more to its inner medical services…
Just watched the movie Sicko from Michael Moore…
Its interesting that you(the system) acctually leave the patients at the curb…
Or that you dont help the people who helped on 9/11…
Its said but ofcourse pure kapitalism brings to such a situation…
I see somthing similar(in the medical asspects) developing here…
If it happens, Im migrating…
Btw, how much does college cost there? Here you go there for free…

I second the edit button

June 25th, 2007

Abysium the Soldier hunt n' pecked this

Well OK, I undestand that a movie can exagerate many things, but I still hope to hear from an American who watched it…
Minority scholarships? Sounds racist to me… Just cos Im Slovenian I can get a scholarship there? Or do I have to be black?
Thou we have free college we still have lots of social&talent scholarships (cos life aint free)…
But I do belive fuel is cheaper there… Also conumer goods…
Gasoline here costs 1.1Euro/L (also your cars drink way too much)
Cigarets here cost 2Euro/pack
Vodka here costs min7Euro/L
Chocolate here costs min1Euro/plate

June 25th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker uttered

Abysium, minority scholarships are not inherently racist just like women’s colleges or historically black colleges aren’t. Context and history are important. We have historically black colleges, for example, because there was time when the universities such as University of Maryland, etc did not accept black students. Same deal for women’s colleges. Some minority scholarships (not all) have the same philosophy…it might have more difficult at one time for minorities to attend higher education for financial reasons. And frankly, you can give scholarships for anything and people do. There are scholarships for people who are left-handed, for people who are Italian, for people whose parents work for Amgen, etc. If a person wants to set up a scholarship, they should be able to give the money to whomever they see fit for whatever reason. Now their reasons COULD be racist but here’s the thing…not everything that deals with race is racist. A lot of minorities don’t understand this whenever they say something is racist. I’ve hard people say if a black man is arrested, “well, that’s racist.” Uh, no it isn’t. He was arrested because murdered 4 people. “Well, he’s being treated the way he is cause he’s black.” Okay, can we not overlook the fact that he killed 4 people?

Onto the other things, I was thinking the other day about how fortunate I am to live here. I’ve been rereading Isabel Allende’s biography and whenever I read about the civil unrest in other countries or the unstable govts, I realize how fortunate I am to live in a place where I don’t ever think I’ll wake up one morning and the govt has been overthrown by the military. Yes, America has problems just like every home has its own problems. And yes, America has done some fucked up things and perhaps the fucked up things we do are just more visible that the fucked up things other nations do to each other. But at the end of the day, I think we have a pretty great system to work with.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker said this

“There is a big brew-haha in our papers because a woman was left to die in the waiting room of Martin Luther King Harbor Medical Center in Los Angeles a few weeks ago and everyone is up in arms about it and it may happen that the entire hospital winds up being closed down.”

I don’t think that this issue isn’t commonplace…I mean, we’ve been hearing about the healthcare crisis, particularly in our emergency rooms for awhile now. Emergency centers have been closing because they are too expensive to run (for a myriad of reasons, illegal immigration perhaps being one of them and just the fact that a lot of people simply cannot afford adequate insurance) and the shortage in emergency leads to other issues such as people sitting in the emergency room for hours then having a heart attack. Or people coming into the emergency while having a heart attack and not being seen for hours.

I think part of the big issue stemmed from not only her dying on the emergency room floor, but the fact that her family called 911 and they didn’t do anything (not that I blame them — I mean, they did what they are trained to do). Morever, King has been under the gun for several years because the healthcare at that hospital is abysmal. Locals call it “Killer King.” There was a story a few years back about an unlicensed pathologist who had been misdiagnosing people with cancer, etc. That hospital has a really bad reputation and it should have been closed and revamped years ago.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker added

Christopher, as I already said, context and history are important. Historically, when you saw a white college (and frankly, a college that only accepts white but doesn’t call itself a white college is, in fact, a white college) or whites only country clubs that excluded people on the basis of race because it felt that other races were inferior, etc, well that IS racist. And that is what you saw historically. But do I think that a whites only country club or college is inherently racist? No, I don’t. It could be racist depending on the facts and circumstances but the fact that it is whites only doesn’t automatically make it so. The fact that something deals with race doesn’t always mean that it is racist.

I’d also like to point out in case you were in any way implying such by your question (and forgive me, but it looked as if you were), that comparing historically black colleges to historically whites only country clubs is ridiculous because the country clubs were clearly racist when the black colleges weren’t. It isn’t racist to start your own college if the other schools won’t accept you because you are black or a woman and if people knew the history behind those schools and women’s colleges, they wouldn’t be so quick to say that it isn’t fair that there aren’t white colleges when there are historically black colleges and women’s colleges. That isn’t racist. Two different sets of facts, two different scenarios, one is racist and one isn’t.

June 26th, 2007

ProphetJoe the Irreverent quibbed this

Christopher said: “I personally think race should not be a criteria at all for colleges, country clubs.. and for colleges it should be strictly based on grades, ect and for country clubs it should be strictly based on $$$.”

I think admissions should be based on your golf handicap and your club membership should be based on your grades.. but that’s just my twisted view of life.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker remarked

“I’m not aware of any colleges that only accept whites.. (I mean they probably exist).”

You’ll notice I said historically There was a time when University of Maryland (I use this as an example of the many state schools that were white only) only accepted white students. This is part of the reason why historically black colleges were founded. My point about white colleges is that people will say, well there have never been any white colleges. Well, that would be inaccurate because if a school only ever accepted white students and specifically excluded other races, then that’s a white college. Just because the school doesn’t CALL itself a white college doesn’t mean that it isn’t.

“However excluding one group is always an ist or ism right?”

It isn’t always racism if that is what you’re asking. Whether something is racist depends on the facts and circumstances surrounding the exclusion. Racism has a particular definition– it is about racial superiority and hatred/intolerance of other races. Your exclusion doesn’t have to be on this basis. I mean, if you started an Irish club for Irish people to come together to celebrate their heritage, most of the people in that club will probably be Irish and white (I’m using this as an example). Your exclusion of non-Irish people doesn’t have to be racist. You’re not making any claims about the superiority of Irish people and denigrating other races. People tend to think of modern whites only clubs as racist because historically, that was the case. But it doesn’t have to be.

“I also disagree with your take on what decides what is racist.. the fact that creating an all black college because historically white colleges don’t accept blacks doesn’t make the black colleges any less racist than a white college.”

One, in my opinion, you clearly do not understand the definition of racism because you seem to think anytime something deals with race, that is racism. That isn’t racism. See my previous definition or look it up in a dictionary. Two, there is a difference between what University of Maryland did and what historically black colleges did. Historically black colleges NEVER excluded non-blacks nor was the purpose or motivation exclusion of nonblacks the way that other colleges excluded everyone but whites. Surely you see the distinction. The black college was created as a place where blacks could obtain higher education but it never excluded anyone else who wanted to attend. So no, the creation of historically black colleges was not racist.

“Personally I think your very wrong about two different scenarios, point.. both are racist. Two wrongs doesn’t make one right.”

See my previous statements in this post.

June 26th, 2007

ProphetJoe the Irreverent stated

But are whites as generous in their philanthropic activities if they belong to a white-only club??

(trying to steer the conversation back on course…)

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker spake, and sayeth

PJ, I get it I only said what I did initially because it’s so difficult to explain the dynamics of race and other issues in the US to people who aren’t from here or don’t live here. And I mean, if there are scholarships for people who are left-handed (I got one in college) and for people whose parents worked for some random company that manufactures the boxes girl scout cookies are packaged in, what is the big deal if a private citizen wants to institute a scholarship at a university but stipulates that it has to a woman or a Mexican student?

June 26th, 2007

ProphetJoe the Irreverent added

I agree, I think. The “separate, but equal” doctrine didn’t work for segregated schools in the 50’s and 60’s. I guess it depends on the motivation and intent of the participant to see if it works in regard to today’s Black Student Union or the Latino Student Organization. Unfortunately, I keep hearing this voice in my head saying: “Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.”

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker remarked

“I agree that “historically” speaking, we can understand the origin of black colleges and women’s colleges because indeed, those people needed an alternative when they weren’t allowed into the colleges being run by white men– who, at the time, were racist. However, I don’t think “tradition” and “history” are an excuse to perpetuate the exclusion of anyone based on race today, now.”

What black colleges are using history and tradition as an excuse to perpetuate the exclusion of other races? Black colleges are not exclusionary. That is the point I am trying to make. There is a fundamental difference between what other institutions did by excluding non whites and what black colleges did and continue to do. The phrase separate but equal is completely inappropriate when discussing black colleges.

Aside from all of that, I don’t think equality has to mean that you cannot celebrate differences. In fact, because we are a country composed of so many different types of people, cultures and heritages, we should try to learn how to celebrate those differences in a positive way instead of making them seem like they don’t exist. It is the celebration of differences that makes us a great and unique country. We have Mardi Gras in Louisiana, we have French and Greek Festivals in Santa Barbara, we have China town and Olvera Street. Those things are not racist and they don’t encourage racism. I think it’s the coolest thing that I live in Southern California and on a given day, I can immerse myself in any culture in 20 minutes. I can get authentic Korean food or Mexican pastries, etc. The point is, differences are not always bad and we lose all of that when we try to make everyone alike. Heritage and culture can be fundamentally important to a person’s personal and individual history.

Acknowledging and celebrating difference does not encourage racism if you don’t imply it where it doesn’t exist — which I find in this country, we have a tendency to do. For example, I’ve had so many whites complain that black history month racist. In what way? How does celebrating the achievements and contributions of black for 28 days out of the year encourage racism, elitism or exclusivity? It doesn’t in the same way that Women’s History Month does not promote sexism.

As for your example with the organization, so what if it isn’t designed to promote you because you’re white. Does it matter? If you want to attend the organization, if you want to be part of that promotion, then you can. You aren’t excluded because you are white and moreover, are you speaking from experience or just assuming you’d be ostracized? There are obviously whites who are members of a lot of those types of organizations because they are there to promote the specific cause of that organization. And even if you were ostracized, would you assume it was because you were white? How would you know it was for that reason?

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker asserted

Ooh…I’m a kingpin And PJ is a DEVIL

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker hunt n' pecked this

“I guess it depends on the motivation and intent of the participant to see if it works in regard to today’s Black Student Union or the Latino Student Organization.”

That’s all that I’m saying. I’ve been part of these organizations and I can tell you, the last thing people are thinking about is promoting racism. They’re discussing issues like how to increase the number of black students on campus, etc and tend to do a lot of community outreach (in their neighborhoods, etc). And also, some of these organizations exist mainly for support. If there are only 8 black students on campus, it’s likely that a few of them would be friends because they have common experiences and can relate to each other. The interesting thing is, people will assume that a group of black students are separatist but a group of white students aren’t.

Example: When I was in college, out of 800 students, there were perhaps, 10 blacks students. We didn’t ALL hang out, but we did tend to eat together or go out together. I was asked at least a dozen times each year from fellow white students, “Why are you guys so separatist? Why do you black students always sit together?” I found it so interesting because I could have asked these same students the exact same question.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker added

“If you were hanging out with the other black kids, then you were choosing to make race an important factor in who your friends were– not the other way around since you were specifically finding 8 out of hundreds of students who happened to be all black.”

You’re assuming that I was choosing to make race a factor when I chose my friends and so did those other white students who always made an issue out of something that wasn’t a racial issue. I could have chosen to be friends with those individuals for a hundred reasons other than the fact that they were black. Maybe we all went to the same high school together (in fact, at least 4 of those students). Maybe we grew up in the same neighborhood. Who knows. But to assume that we hung out together because we were black is a gross assumption. Moreover, even if we were hanging out for that reason, that doesn’t make us racist. Perhaps we hung out together because as black women, we experience the world in the same way and could relate to each more than we could to white people. Does that make us racist? No, it doesn’t.

“I’m guessing for the white kids, race was not a factor in who their friends were because everyone was white (for the most part) so they looked at factors other than race when choosing.”

Interesting perspective. I happen to have friends who are black and I’m using race as a factor. These individuals only hang out with white kids (despite the fact that the school was 30% Asian — i.e., everyone else wasn’t white) aren’t using race as a factor notwithstanding the fact that out of all of the students on campus THEY could choose from, all of their friends were white. I fail to see your rationale.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker mentioned

“How do you think the black community would respond to a brand new organization created to promote white men in business?”

That really isn’t the point. The point is whether it is racist and it may not be. I’ve already touched this issue in an earlier post to Christopher. And I’m sure you already know I take issue with your use of the term “black community.” I really don’t know what that is. Would some black people be offended and think it was racist? Sure. Would they be right? It would depend on the facts and circumstances of that organization. Just because someone says something is racist (which people in this country are SO quick to do), doesn’t mean that it is.

“No, I’m not speaking from experience with the Black Screenwriter’s Organization. I’m thinking I may actually go to one of their meetings just to test my theory. But it comes back down to WHY would I WANT to be part of an organization whose mission is not to benefit me? Why is a Black Screenwriter’s Organization better than say, the American Screenwriter’s Organization (I’m making that org up by the way for illustration purposes) that promotes all screenwriters regardless of their race or gender? Why is the one specifically dedicated to blacks better?”

Well since you aren’t a part of this organization and have never been to their meetings, I don’t understand how you can speak on what it promotes. And it’s not necessarily that one organization is better or the other. It’s about what your values are and if you agree with what that particular org promotes. Maybe it is about encouraging black writers because perhaps, in the business, there are not very many. Maybe it’s a support network for black writers who feel ostracized and alone in an industry that is predominantly white. Maybe it’s for black writers to come and discuss the topics that are of interest to them and to promote the publication of works that are about black people and talk about things black people want to read about and can relate to. I’m not saying any of those things are true. I’m just saying that there are million reasons why this organization exists. If you’re down with what they’re doing, well then that would obviously be the better choice for you. And if you don’t want to join, then don’t. I don’t understand the question as to why you would want to join that as opposed to the other you mentioned.

Moreover, making race a factor is not always negative. It can be positive. If black writers realize that black people would like to read stories that they can relate to, well, yes that makes race a factor but not in a negative way.

“So yes, it does matter. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say “People shouldn’t treat me differently because I’m black” and then join clubs that use race as a basis for membership.”

Actually you can say that. To say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous to me. Women banded together and organized because they wanted equal rights while at the same time saying, you can’t treat us differently because we’re women. One has nothing to do with the other unless it promotes racism in some way. What you’ve cited doesn’t.

“In terms of celebrating heritage… you are missing a big difference. It’s one thing to celebrate your heritage in a way that educates others about it (I’m all for celebrating Christmas and Hanukkah in school– as opposed to banning all those things because they might offend someone), but it’s something completely different to go to a church of all blacks (I was watching a black evangelist on Sunday morning on t.v. so I’ll use him as my example) and listen to him talk about how the world is racist and they have to support each other (as blacks) to overcome it. ”

What difference did I miss? Black people and other groups celebrate their cultures all of the times in ways that educate others about it — it is other people who imply racism where there isn’t. Parents complain about Black History Month in schools as racist without realizing that 95% of what their kids are learning throughout the year is European, white history. Parents complain if their kids have to read Toni Morrison in their American Literature class as racist while completely ignoring the fact that most of the literature their kids will read will be white authors. People in this country need to relearn and re-educate themselves on what racism is because if we don’t, we can talk about color-blindness until we’re blue in the face and ultimately nothing will change. People won’t become less racist. Race will just be that elephant in that room. I think you’re the person who is the being idealistic if you think that at some point we’re going to achieve some pseudo-utopia where

“But if I decided to hire only white women because I felt they needed my support, at the exclusion of white men, black men, asian women, etc.– then that does little to help us all achieve equality. ”

You can support without excluding and I’m trying to figure out why you think all of these organizations and churches exclude other races. On what facts or information are you basing these conclusions? You can promote without exclusion and without bringing other groups down. It is a worthy skill to learn.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker scribbled

We’re totally posting at the same time!

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker added

“But here’s where I don’t think your argument holds, Mara. You’re saying that maybe you were hanging out with other black women because you all experience the world the same way and could relate to each other more than you could to white people. First, that attitude alone means you are setting yourself apart from whites. It’s hard to identify with the “human experience” when you already feel that people of a different race can’t relate to you– or you can’t relate to them. By having that attitude, you are choosing to have a “black experience” rather than a “human experience.” And second, if a bunch of white kids didn’t want to hang out with you because they could relate better to the “white experience,” they would indeed be separatist, wouldn’t they?”

Question: Do you really think you, as a white woman and I, as a black woman, really experience the world in the same way?

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker penned this

Christine, I’m referencing your last post but I didn’t cut and paste because I thought it would be too long.

Okay for one, I don’t know exactly what argument doesn’t hold water. I have said several times, everytime something involves race doesn’t make something racist. So if you’re referring that argument, I’m a little confused as to what you’re actually saying. I would appreciate if you could clarify that more.

In terms of the example I gave you, the point was, people assume things about other racial groups they don’t assume about others. People assumed that we were a separatist group merely because we ate meals together and went out together. There was no exclusion, no one chose not to hang out with other students because they were white. This was an assumption that was made. I didn’t say I chose those friends because they were black. Maybe it for the other reasons I listed. The point was, it was always assumed that it was because of race when in actuality, it could have been for a dozen other reasons such as those I listed. Heck, we could have met at the local church before school started. Who knows. And like I said before, the school had plenty of other ethnic groups and no one ever says to the white students who all hang out with each other, they’re being separatist by deliberately choosing to have only white friends.

My second point was that even if we did choose each other as friends because we share a common experience as black minorities, that too isn’t racist. The fact is, there is a black experience that is distinct from yours as a white person. That isn’t racist. That’s just the way the world is. Moreover, I find it a little insulting, no, not insulting but insensitive that you would suggest that by in some way acknowledging and perhaps (I didn’t say I did, but for the sake of argument) choosing my friends based on my black experience, that I am choosing that experience over the human one. I do not CHOOSE to have a black experience at all. My experience of the world comes from the way it treats ME. I only have a black experience because our society has created one. So, yes, to cope with this experience or have some relatability, I might choose people that share a similar experience.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker said this

“So while some people might see race as an important factor in relating to someone, I just don’t. I’ve never seen gender that way either.”

That’s fine. But I do think it’s insensitive and unfair of you to criticize those for whom race might be an important factor in relating to someone. I don’t share the same experience as all black women, however, many black women do relate to one another as black women. And for some women, that relation is an important one. For me personally, I can discuss things with my black friends that I can’t with my white friends simply because they don’t get what it is to be a black woman and the issues that I may want to discuss are things that specifically affect black women.

“And the truth is… if every other month teaches about the accomplishments of whites, that obviously means whites had more accomplishments. Which makes sense given the history of this country and that it’s really hard for women and blacks to make amazing accomplishments when they are enslaved or not allowed to work or be educated. But that is what it is. It doesn’t make the accomplishments of white men any less important to our current lives. I think we should be including the accomplishments of women and blacks — even if it’s relatively few– along with the accomplishments of whites. I don’t think we gain anything by picking out a group of people who happened to have the same skin color or the same genitalia and dedicating a month to their accomplishments.”

Out of everything that you’ve written, this is probably the most baffling and frankly, ignorant and uinformed. For one, European and white American history and European and white American literature are not taught most of the time (or as you said, during every other month) because white people have accomplished more. Rather, it is because those who design the curriculum are 1) white and 2) obviously see THEIR history and accomplishments, arts, etc as more relevant for education than that of other groups. It isn’t that other groups never did anything or did less. Fortunately, I attended a high where I took Latin American and Asian history my last two years. There is a wealth of information and knowledge kids don’t get and it isn’t because white people are the only people on earth to have every accomplished anything or even more. Two, your statement that because of slavery black people couldn’t accomplish as much says that you know next to little about black history. If you do, please correct me because what you’ve just written doesn’t suggest that in anyway. Thirdly, black history month is NOT about lessening the accomplishments of white people or making those of blacks more special or giving them a special month as you assert. Blacks started the month as a way to encourage black people BECAUSE white people told them they couldn’t accomplish anything, that they couldn’t do anything, to educate themselves about their own history (since schools didn’t do it) and to educate other people who were racist that blacks were just as good as everyone else. Moreover, because the accomplishments of every group are important and helped shaped this shape this country, the history should be taught. There are many ways to do this. It can be done throughout the school year, teachers can pick one particular month where they do it, whatever.

Anyway, I only brought Black History Month to illustrate something that people always imply is racist when it actually isn’t. As for the rest of your post, yes, I agree that many black people play the victim card. That sort of goes to what I said earlier about black people always saying something is racist when it isn’t. White people do the same thing. We live in a country that has a fundamental issue with race and we think the way to deal with it is not talk about it. Don’t say anything dealing with race. How do we work on solving a problem if no one wants to talk about its realities? It would be great if America found a way to relate to each other but it isn’t talking about race that gets in the way…it is race. Race is the pink elephant in the room.

“As a woman, I know sexism exists. I’m sure I’ve been discriminated against because I’m female. But seriously, so what? If it happened, it happened. The best thing to do is get over it and have the confidence you can compete at any level men are competing at. ”

And history is how we learn that we can get over something and have the confidence to compete at any level. Perhaps you personally don’t see the relevance but surely you can imagine how many women have been inspired through hearing the stories, the history of other women who walked the path before them.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker said this

“The fact that they find that more inspirational than say just a person (regardless of race or gender) paving the way for the same accomplishment is sort of troubling.”

Again, I’m baffled. How is a black child who is told his entire life that he can’t accomplish anything because he’s black, that he is stupid because he is black, that he can’t ever be a doctor because black people aren’t smart enough to be doctors, finds inspiration because a black man like the one he is going to grow up to be was able to accomplish exactly what he wanted to do and showed him that black people aren’t stupid as he’s always been told, troubling? Why wouldn’t he find that more inspirational that just any other person becoming a doctor?

“Until we can truly see everyone as just a person and not a black person or a white person, etc., then race will be turned into an issue.”

Well, this is where your idealism comes in because you fail to realize that until individuals are treated as persons instead of black people or white people, race will never NOT be an issue. If there was no minority experience in the first place, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker added

“Regarding your second point… that’s quite a conundrum, huh? You’re discounting the possibility of actually seeing people as people instead of examples of their race because you want to justify the “minority experience.”

Not really because you clearly did not get my point. *I’m* not discounting the possibility of actually seeing people as people instead of their races. *I* see people as people. But others don’t see ME that way. My point is that because race is such an issue in this country, people do, in fact, experience the world differently and until those *experiences* are changed, until people don’t experience their race as it has been defined by hundreds of years of racism, then society will never be able to reach this nirvana you envision of people seeing people just as people. So at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if no one ever mentions race. As long as I continue to have this black experience, then race is an issue. This is what I meant by race just becomes the elephant in the room. No one is talking about race or racism, but it’s still occuring.

Moreover, there is a black experience, not because black people have created one; it is there because we live in a society that made race an issue before we even entered the world. I didn’t choose to be black nor did I choose everything that comes being with black. Furthermore, there is no need for me justify any minority experience because the fact is, I experience the world differently because of my race and it’s there whether you acknowledge or not. Frankly, it’s easier for you because you personally don’t have to deal with it. But you don’t get to invalidate my experience because you disagree with it and in fact, it’s completely insulting that you would. Who are you, a white woman, to tell me that I don’t have different experiences from you as a black woman? Are you a black woman? From your pictures and what you’ve said about yourself, I would deduce that so you aren’t so don’t presume to know what I experience as a black woman because you don’t understand or don’t see color. If you don’t see it, that’s one thing. But to talk about it as though it’s a figment of my imagination, as if I’m some deluded black person always playing the victim is out of line. I’m an intelligent person who is not given to flights of fancy and I know what is real and what isn’t. You don’t get to define what is real for someone else because you don’t understand or recognize it.

“Continue to perpetuate treating people differently, and you’ll create more “minority experiences.” The only way for equality to be achieved is when race isn’t an issue.”

I have never advocated treating people differently. None of my posts have been about that. Black people experience the world differently from you. That’s it. You can accept it or not. As for the latter part of this statement, this is true but you have to decide when race is an issue and when it isn’t. For me, race is only an issue when something is racist, otherwise who cares? Acknowledging difference is not bad in and of itself. It’s what you do with that acknowledgment that matters. We have racism because historically, difference has been used to degrade and humiliate. We cannot change that we are different and we don’t have to act like we can’t talk about it. We have to change the way we see difference and re-define the way we respond to it. My original point was to clarify when something is racist and when it isn’t. Racism doesn’t occur everytime someone focuses or even mentions race. Racism has a specific definition and that doesn’t happen to be it.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker quibbed this

“I’d like to know who exactly is saying all this stuff to black children so that they NEED to see that black people can accomplish something. Because if they want to see blacks being doctors, being politicians, being business owners, all he has to do in 2007 is open his eyes and look around.”

You are incredily naive if you think that black children don’t hear from their teachers and from schools that they will never amount to anything because they are black. It happens. They aren’t necessarily getting it from their parents. It comes from all kinds of place. It comes from the high school counselor who tells her straight A black student to apply to the community college down the street because as a black student, she wouldn’t do well at a four-year university. It comes from the preschool teacher who tells the four-year black child that special swings are reserved for the white kids because the white kids are better and aren’t dirty like the little black kids (which actually happened to ME). And, you might be surprised to know, but a black person can go through their entire life without ever meeting or seeing a black doctor. I didn’t see one until I was 19.

The point is, it is important for some children to have positive identification in their history because sometimes for them, those are the only positive role models they may have. Case in point: You say that your parents told you you could be anything. My mother did the same thing except the conversation that she had with me was probably very different from the conservation your mother had with you. Because my mother grew up in the 50s, she let me know from an early age that racism existed and that while things had improved, there would always be people who would pass me over despite my top grades, etc simply because I was black. She didn’t tell me this so that I would feel victimized. She told me this to prepare me for what I might encounter in the world and frankly, she would have done me a great disservice had she not. She taught me black history because she wanted me to have as many tools in my arsenal — to know that I was somebody, to know that me being black won’t stop me from doing anything. And how do I know this? Because of what black people before me and what those presently accomplished. She taught me through black history that you can overcome anything and those lessons of the people before me were to teach me, that if someone could obtain their education under the adversity and racism they had to endure, then so could I. Did I gain inspiration from my mother telling me I could do anything? Yes. Did I gain inspiration from knowing that black people before under intense odds had done what they set out to do? Yes. I gain inspiration from other stories as well, stories about women, stories about other people. But because I find inspiration from the black history somehow that makes me racist?

And it doesn’t make me feel victimized. Because of that foundation, I know how to respond when someone says to me at a job interview after looking over my resume, “Wow. I look at you and think about my son. He’s in jail and you’re here when the roles should be reserved. It doesn’t make any sense that my white son is in jail while you’re sitting here.” I’m prepared to deal with those situations so yes, I’m glad that I learned black history. For me, it was certainly a necessity.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker stated

Okay, I’ll post this really quickly. I’m going to respond to everything you just wrote so it may be in 2 or 3 posts. Perhaps you might wait until I posted them to respond to make this easier to follow?

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker hunt n' pecked this

Christine to your first post,
When I talk about the black experience, it is not about choosing to become a victim because of it. That is not at all what I’m saying. It’s about acknowledging that black people (and other minorities but for right now, this is the token group for purposes of illustration), because of racism and the ways in which we deal with race, have a distinct experience. Now what people do with that experience is separate issue — whether they choose to become victims or choose to do something to overcome it and that seems to what most your first post was about. My point is that you have to talk to about these experiences in order to address the issues we have with racism. Ignoring it or not recognizing it or criticizing people who do, to me, is like trying to fix a problem when you don’t know what the problem is. The purpose of discussing the black experience isn’t to garner sympathy or wallow or any of those things and furthermore, it actually helps us when we identify the experiences of various minorities, to figure out where our problems lie. Why would we even address the issue of inequality if we didn’t recognize that people experience inequality because of their race?

Even in your example about sexism, I don’t think your approach necessarily does anything combat sexism and in fact, one could even make the argument that history hasn’t shown that to be true. Your attitude seems to be the wait and see argument. That is, if we just keeping working and striving, people will eventually see that women are just as talented and smarter. But you can’t strive and work and do any of those things if the company won’t hire you in the first because you are a woman or you can’t go to college because they don’t accept women. And the irony in your argument is that because of women banding together and focusing on their gender in that particular fashion, you are able to get that job that you have and strive and do all of the things that you can. Those women helped make it possible for you to get your foot in the door so that you can show people what you can do, maybe not as a woman but just as Christine. The wait and see approach didn’t do that. Frankly, I think that approach goes against human nature. People in power do not voluntarily hand it over out of their goodness of their hearts. It has to be taken. Those who are powerless have to stand up and demand it. Perhaps you object to their methods (which it seems that you do) and that’s fine. But to see degree, it has worked. There have been what I call side effects, but I can do things I would not have been able to do 50 years ago because someone focused on race.

I obviously mistook what your meant from your saying that I was trying to justify a minority experience. To me, that came across as you contending that what I experiene is not real but I see that is not what you were saying.

“The nature of racism is treating someone differently because of their race.”
I never disputed this. What I have said is that the difference in races is not necessarily or inherently bad. It is what we do with that difference that can be.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker got all philosophical

“Do you think it’s possible that when you tell a child that the world is racist and they will encounter racism, the child grows up believing (prior to his or her own experience) that the world is racist? That is… why put a chip on a child’s shoulder just so they can be “prepared?”

Hmm. That’s a strange question only because I think, as a parent, a big part of your job is to prepare your child for the world and what they may encounter no matter how ugly or difficult so that they can get through it, make good choices, etc. This is why we tell children not to talk to strangers and tell not to go places late at night and to always be on guard, etc and be careful how they choose their friends, etc. I don’t think it should be any different with race if that is something a child may encounter.

I think any child could grow up with any number of issues, chips on their shoulders because of what they’re taught and they way they are taught. I personally think the way my mother taught me was constructive because she coupled that with black history — it was like, okay, there’s racism but that’s not an excuse not to handle your business, so to speak. But if kids just get that the world can be racist with nothing to counteract such as what I had, well yeah, it’s not surprising when those same kids walk around like they are victims (when they really aren’t).

But again, to me, the issue lies in the method and not necessarily in a parent telling their child they may experience racism because they are black. I mean, that’s true. It’s a fact. It doesn’t do your children any good to teach them that life is fairy tale. I mean, whenever I said something wasn’t fair to my mother, it would irritate the shit out of me that she would always say “life isn’t fair.” And one day she sat me down and explained why she always said that. And I got it. Life isn’t fair. It can be pretty fucked up. It isn’t fair that people prey on little children, it isn’t fair that you might not get that great job because you’re a woman or not an attractive woman or whatever. It isn’t fair and because you’re going into the situation knowing that sometimes things will be unfair, you’ve got to have a way to deal with that in a constructive manner. Making yourself a victim is not constructive. But preparing your children for racism doesn’t necessarily mean that you are making your children victims.

“What does that mean to be “prepared for racism?” What would have happened to you if you hadn’t had that “preparation?” Without it, you would’ve experienced racism for the first time and probably have gotten angry about it once you realized what had happened. Am I right or wrong?”

What does it mean to be prepared for anything? Again, I find this to be a very strange question. And actually, when I experienced racism for the first time, anger is not what I felt. I felt deeply sorrowful and grieved that in this day and age, things like what happened to me still happen. I don’t know why I felt sorrow as opposed to anger. I think for me, because I had the strong foundation that I did, I could deal with it in a positive and constructive way.

“One of the black women I used to work with told her elementary aged sons never to say “I’m sorry” to anyone. Instead, they should say “I apologize” because no one could ever call them “sorry.” Now, despite the fact she confused two different meanings of the word “sorry,” that’s quite a chip to lay on your kids’ shoulders. Do you think white parents are telling their kids to say “I apologize” instead of “I’m sorry?” Perhaps… but I just don’t think so.”

Well, as I suggested earlier when just comparing what our own mothers might have said to each of us (and you can correct me anytime), the conversations that white parents have with their children may be very different from those black parents have with theirs. So whether white parents are telling their kids the same thing is really moot. Different experiences warrant different conversations.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker thought this

I wanted to say one more thing in regards to choosing to identify with someone based on race as opposed to based on other things.

Your post seemed to suggest that by identifying with others based on shared racial experiences, that is in some allowing yourself to be a victim of racism. Hopefully, my earlier post clarified what I mean when I say by experience. But I would like to say that this identification again, can be a very constructive thing. When I said earlier today, for example the different reasons why black screenwriters might form an organization, you interpret that as separatist and racist and counteproductive when in actuality, it may serve very important and constructive purposes. For black writers who may feel ostracized in a predominantly white industry, that group could be a source of encouragement and support for them. People relate to people with whom they have things in common and it can be very difficult to be the “only one” at your job or what have you. You may go through things that other people go through because of their race and need to commiserate and gain support and encouragement.

So when I’m talking about identifying with other black people because we share a common experience, it isn’t about victimization or any of those things. Well, it CAN be depending on who it is. But my point is, identification based on race occurs for one simple reason: people gravitate to people who are like them or have similar experiences, etc. Again, that is human nature.

And at that the end of the day, it might just not be about you and you know what? Sometimes everything isn’t about you. The black group of writers who get together because of their shared experience aren’t getting together to promote themselves over you as a white person. It’s not about you as a white person at all. It’s about them. You interpret it as counterproductive because you’re reading a bunch of stuff into that simply isn’t there. When you say things like that, it makes me think of the class I sat in once where the students were talking about standards of beauty and how the European model shouldn’t be the only standard, but women of all races are beautiful. The two white girls in the room complained “why isn’t white beautiful?” No one said that it wasn’t. It wasn’t about you. It was about them.

I think the same idea can apply to groups that relate and bond on the basis of race without being racist or promoting racism.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker up'n wrote this

God this is so ridiculous and I don’t know how we got so off topic but I will say ONE MORE THING. And then I’ll stop inundating you with posts, Christine.

On the black experience…
Identifying with people because you share the same experience (which my last post discussed) and having the experience itself are two different things. You’ve said more than once that by choosing to, I suppose, identify with people based on a black experience, I’m choosing to identify with that experience as opposed to another. I experience the world differently regardless of who I associate myself with and this is what I was getting to earlier when I said I don’t choose the black experience over something — it just is. In other words, my black experience is not derived or defined by self-identification or me in some way focusing on being black. It doesn’t require me to focus on it all. Rather, the experience exists because of society’s treatment of me as black. Without that, there is no black experience. That’s what I was getting to earlier.

June 26th, 2007

Mara the Peacemaker uttered

“But I think the “sanctioning” if you will of these organizations that specificallly make a point of promoting a specific gender or race are part of the reason race continues to be brought into things it has nothing to do with.”

And I don’t think that it does particularly since I’ve been a part of these organizations and know where they are about. Promotion does not have to occur at the expense of other groups. And I’m not suggesting that you feel threatened by these groups or anything like that. What I am suggesting though is that it is almost like you’re making this about you and racism (a general you, not you Christine) when it isn’t. A bunch of black writers getting together to promote black writers and not put down or denigrate any other group is not racist. It doesn’t concern you at all. In fact, you’re welcome to join if you want. If the nature of racism is that people of different races are treated differently, then there is no problem because that is not what is happening in that scenario. Now if these groups excluded whites or something like that, you’d have a different argument.

The reason race continues to be brought into things that have nothing do with race is that people don’t understand fundamentally what racism is. We have created a culture where everything is racist — we’re afraid to have honest conversations at the fear of being called racist or using the race card, etc. We’re so afraid of that label “racist” that it has lost its force by becoming an underhanded trump card; a sleazy tactic if you will.

“I don’t feel I subscribe to the “wait and see” method either. That would be appropriate if I were sitting around doing nothing, expecting someone to hand me something because it’s unfair what’s happened to my gender.

That isn’t what I meant by wait and see (sitting around expecting someone to hand you something). In your earlier post, you said that you would not make gender an issue but work hard and hopefully people would one day no longer have sexist notions. You’re not explicitly demanding equal treatment. You’re hoping that one day you’ll get it if you just continue to work hard. And my response to that is that is not how you got the educational and employment opportunities you have now. Therein lies the irony — you criticize those who would make gender an issue yet the very fact that gender was made an issue is the reason you were able to attend USC, that you are able to ultimately, pursue whatever dreams you may have. You didn’t get that because women just worked hard and hoped someday people would no longer be sexist and give them fair opportunities.

“I think often times that “commiserating” with people who share a common experience, particularly when that experience is a minority one and historically has not been one that shares equal rights, breeds something other than support. It tends to breed a victim mentality and an exclusionary mentality that doesn’t hel