Christine the Lioness (3124)
Christopher the Pyro (1991)
ProphetJoe the Irreverent (1291)
Trouble the Pirate (604)
Keith the Director (573)
Mara the Peacemaker (535)
eric the Lil' Devil (352)
AJ the Zen Master (305)
Ben the Kingpin (214)
Haas the Addict (187)
Christine 2 the Mercenary (131) Lei the Mercenary (124) Katie the Mercenary (115)
SypeFurry the Soldier (57) Christine the Lioness pontificated
My Christopher is of the “angry” variety. 
At first, when he told me this happened, I didn’t believe him. I didn’t really think it was possible to get into an argument with a barista in the short amount of time that you’re in the store. But apparently, it is… and of all people to imply a tip from, this poor guy picked the wrong person with Christopher.
Christine the Lioness up'n wrote this
LOL… Here’s what I found written by a Starbucks manager about Starbucks “University…”
” Training, as I mentioned before, initially begins with what I would like to call “Starbucks University.” Many were ready to get behind the bar and experience hands-on training immediately. So, when I handed them a large spiral book and told them they had six hours to complete the sections, I often received looks of confusion and concern, much like when a teacher hands his students a pop quiz. Each section of the training manual was divided into sections that provided an in depth description of the responsibilities required of all baristas. A written test was given after each section was completed to ensure the partner’s understanding. Usually, a new partner can take two days just finishing the book before they ever touch a cup!”
If the barista really told Christopher he doubts Chris could complete it… uh… LOL… no wonder he’s only trusted with pouring coffee for a living. Maybe someone should explain this concept of… four year universities. Because those can be pretty tough too… nothing like the two-day Starbucks university I’m sure… but still, pretty tough.
Chaim the Groupie up'n wrote this
Well, first off, I seriously doubt this happened in quite the way you describe. I doubt anyone who goes through Starbucks training refers to it as “College.” Also, in my experience, the guys at Starbucks don’t pay attention to tips. Not only have I never been asked for a tip there, but I have never been thanked or even noticed when I put a tip in the cup.
My father was the first one to notice this. He found that everywhere he went, when he gave someone a tip, he we usually thanked. At Starbucks, however, he was never thanked. So he and I began what we later called the “Starbucks experiment. Basically, every time we went to a starbucks anywhere in the country, we would put a dollar in the tip bucket and see if we got a response. For about two years of this, there was no response. Finally, about 6 months ago, I put a dollar in the tip cup at my local Starbucks in NYC and was rewarded with a hearty “thank you” and eye contact.
I am not sure that I agree with the barista that tipping is customary for a cup of coffee poured. Technically there is no such custom for counter or any kind of take-out service. Had he been waiting on you at a table, it would have been a different matter.
People who work at Starbucks and at other food service jobs are not idiots, or any less likely to be educated than you are. Though you may have encountered one idiot, many people working jobs in restaurants and coffee houses are writers, musicians and artists trying to make ends meet. Sometimes this is a second job helping them to make ends meet when their main work isn’t cutting it. Having any sort of degree does not disqualify you from working at Starbucks, Walmart, Houston’s or any number of other places. And having no formal education does not mean your destiny is to work such jobs. And none of those things have anything to do with your intelligence.
Anyway, if what you described is indeed exactly how the events transpired, I encourage you to seriously chill out 
Christopher the Pyro said this
“People who work at Starbucks and at other food service jobs are not idiots, or any less likely to be educated than you are.”
Are you fucking kidding me… they are less educated then me.. and that is why they are working at Star Fucks. Period. End of Fucking Story.
Chaim the Groupie uttered
Do you feel this way about people who work at all coffee houses, or just Starbucks in particular?
Christopher the Pyro commented
Ok after thinking about this for a few minutes.. I realized.. it is possible that they any given person at any given job is more educated then me.. and may well enjoy the low stress of a walmart or starfucks job…. I’m a little loath to follow your advice about chilling out.. I mean come on man.. you spent the last two years tipping random starfuck losers to see if they would say thank you…
Christopher the Pyro pontificated
While anybody who is wasting their life away at a Coffee shop deserves my wrath, the losers that work at Starfucks and drink the koolaid need the ripping the worst. Everything about that corporation is wonderfully manipulating which I admire (considering I’m in marketing).. but it’s pretty sad when your own employee’s believe there is something special about the drinks.
Christine the Lioness uttered
LOL. I don’t agree that they’re less educated either… although, if they have a degree that could help them get a $50,000/year job, then I do have to wonder why they would choose to work at Starbucks instead. I do understand having a second job because I worked two jobs and at one point, three jobs, for quite a while when I was trying to get my foot in the door as a writer. Kudos to them for not being one of these lazy ass dickweeds who sit around and won’t get a job because they can’t “find one that makes enough money.” To the people who use that excuse, I say… “Fuck you. Get off your entitled ass and get two jobs if you need to.” For some, there might be outside circumstances (they have to take care of a sick parent or have some other issue that requires they work non-traditional hours), but for the most part… you have to sort of wonder since it doesn’t make logical sense to pour coffee for a living after spending four years at a college when you don’t actually need a degree to pour coffee. If that’s what you want to do, then by all means, be a barista your whole life. Cool. Good for you. But don’t convince yourself that you’re performing some skill that couldn’t be learned by pretty much anyone on the planet after your two day “Starbucks university” course. Accept it for what it is, and you won’t come off as a retard.
Second, Chaim, just because it didn’t happen to you, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to Christopher. I believe his story, because this kind of shit happens to him and he doesn’t need to make it up.
Third, Starbucks training is indeed referred to as “Starbucks University.” I looked it up. And yes, it’s pretentious as fucking hell to call their lame ass “here’s how to pour coffee and add some foamy milk” a “university.” But they do. Starbucks is taking some liberties in throwing that word around I think… but hey, whatever makes their employees feel good I guess.
Last, and maybe most important… you conducted your little experiment for TWO YEARS???! You tipped people who didn’t thank you for two fucking years just to see when one would thank you??? Does this seem counterintuitive to anyone besides me? I don’t even think NASA continues to conduct experiments that long… and they certainly don’t continue to reward people for entitled behavior. Did I miss something there?
But yes, there are times when Christopher does need to chill out just a little. For those times, I recommend a tall ice blended frappaccino.
Chaim the Groupie said this
I would hardly describe food service as low-stress. (I’m a bartender, and once slung my fair share of cappuccinos as well, though never at Starbucks.) And, though my experiment may seem pointless, I found it interesting. It didn’t require any alteration in my behavior, really, since I already tip on a rather consistent basis. I guess I just did it at Starbucks more thoroughly than usual. As a benefit to the process, it has caused me to acknowledge every tip I receive in my own work.
Chaim the Groupie chimed in with
In response to Christine:
There was nothing wrong with my tipping experiment. I tip anyway. This time I just paid attention to the reaction, and got none. Why should I not tip? I could just as easily make my own damn cappuccino at home, but instead I have chosen to go to Starbucks and have someone else make it for me. The the people who actually make the drunks don’t technically get any of the money that I spend on the drink. The tip is a simple acknowledgment that they have done something that I could have done myself but instead chose not to. The “entitlement” bit goes both ways. I am not entitled to have someone else make a latte for me.
Secondly, four years at university does not equal a $50 a year job. Almost every friend I have that is my age (24-25 range) had graduated college, and none of them are making $50 a year. In fact, most of them are making less than I do and I don’t have a degree. These days, I feel like it’s not worth going to school unless you get a master’s as well. This is exactly what I will do if I decide to go back to school.
Chaim the Groupie uttered
um, correction. I meant $50k a year, not 50 dollars!
ProphetJoe the Irreverent up'n wrote this
Chaim said “The tip is a simple acknowledgment that they have done something that I could have done myself but instead chose not to. The “entitlement” bit goes both ways. I am not entitled to have someone else make a latte for me.”
Bullshit! Tips are about impressing the cutie who served you so you can get laid and obviously, the coffee jockey wasn’t Christopher’s type.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent up'n wrote this
Seriously, Chaim, I think there is a big flaw in your theory about tips.
Christopher is PAYING for the cup of coffee and the employee (sorry, the Starbuck’s University alumnus) is BEING PAID to serve him said coffee. By your theory, when I go to Wally World to buy a box of ammo (which I could make at home) I should be tipping tip the checker for the convenience of buying them there… I think not!
ProphetJoe the Irreverent remarked
Oh, and by the way, thank God your stocking up on the caffiene, ‘topher. I was beginning to think that you had been incarerated or something because of your low participation!
Welcome back! Nothing like a trip to Starfuck’s to get Christopher’s blood boiling again
Christopher the Pyro up'n wrote this
Chaim,
I’ve pretty much given up pointing out why tipping itself is wrong so I won’t even go into that, but realize that while most of the friends you have might not be making more than 50k a year at this point they will eventually be making more than 50k and many times they might be starting lower only to pass your income after a few years of working. Also, while most of your friends might not be making 50k a year I can say that most of my friends with a “real” 4 year degree.. (I’m not talking about some lame ass junior college), make far more than 50k a year. Additionally studies and statistics simply do not support that most people without a degree make more than people with a degree. I will say I don’t think a degree is required to earn big money.. but there is value in someone who can deal with 4 years of college.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent up'n wrote this
Christine said “…there are times when Christopher does need to chill out just a little. For those times, I recommend a tall ice blended frappaccino. ”
Somehow, Christine, I think ‘topher would disagree with you on this one. When he wants to chill out and de-stress about the world around him, he doesn’t want 
No, I think he envisions you being on your knees “serving” him
ProphetJoe the Irreverent up'n wrote this
SFE: “It’s customary…….”
Christopher: “So is being heterosexual”
SFE: “Pardon…..”
ROFLMAO — I don’t even know you Christopher, but based on this blog alone, I can SO SEE you saying that…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent scribbled
…and isn’t this just a continuation of the Tip Your Waitress post??
Not that I’m offended or anything like that. In fact, if memory serves me (and it always does), that was your most popular post (by far), so it only makes sense you should market a variation of it as a follow-up product (my, but you are 2 clever lesbians, aren’t you?)
Personally, I don’t know why the posts about ‘tine’s bQQbs aren’t the top posts, but that’s just me (well, me and her tits).
Christine the Lioness up'n wrote this
Boy, I got to agree with PJ and Christopher on this one. But I find that Chaim’s mentality is common with people who don’t have degrees from “real” colleges. I remember when I had just graduated from USC and was working as a lifeguard, another lifeguard who was half-assing it at a community college had to launch into this diatribe about how his education and degree is just as good as mine because we were both making the same wage as lifeguards, blah, blah, blah. I’m guessing if we compared our salaries now, he’s still probably making a lifeguard’s hourly wage and I’m making much more. So yes, people with degrees do typically, in time, surpass people without them. It’s the secret that people with degrees know, and the ones who don’t… don’t. And proof of this is that I’m 10 years past where you are, Chaim (I’m almost 34) and pretty much everyone I know is making at least 50,000K.
And PJ is right. You have every right to patronize an establishment and pay only what they tell you to pay for the goods you buy. You’re not required to tip anyone. So what you could make coffee at home? I could grow my own damn cucumbers at home too but I’d rather go to the grocery store to get them and I shouldn’t feel obligated to tip the cashier or the produce guy because I decided to patronize an establishment that exists to sell me stuff. It’s nice that you want to tip… but you’re suggesting it’s required in some way and it’s not. So your argument goes south from there.
And lastly, food service IS low-stress. Compared to other jobs with much more responsibility. I worked as a bartender too… and a cocktail waitress… and a waitress in a fine dining establishment for several years when I was younger. And while I thought it was stressful back then, you don’t really know stress until you land one of those 50K jobs and have the kind of responsibility that comes with it. For example, in Christopher’s job… he is the head of marketing. If he doesn’t do his job well and sell products, 30 guys who make those products and support their families, get laid off. In my job, if I don’t meet a deadline, 45 crew members don’t get paid because we push production. That’s responsibility and stress. High stress is having a job that doesn’t just allow you to call Joe Blow to come in and sub for you if you don’t feel like working. But you have to have the experience of actually working a high-stress job to realize that.
Christine the Lioness stated
And yes… why aren’t my boobs at the top of the list? I was wondering that myself…
Trouble the Pirate penned this
They are top of MY list Miss Christine… 
Christopher the Pyro asserted
At least I know what my next post will be…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent added
Don’t forget the 
!!!!
Chaim the Groupie scribbled
I did not realize when I started commenting on this post that Chris is morally opposed to tipping. I have since educated myself by reading the Waitress post from May 2005.
If you are unable to feel superior to most other people unless you forgo tipping someone who works an exhausting and thankless job, then there’s really nothing I can say to you to change your mind. Although your job may feel important, and require more “responsibility” than that of a waitress, that does not mean that she is less deserving of respect than you are. Furthermore, she is doing a job that you do not want to do, aand yet, assuming you eat out, it’s a job that you want at least SOMEONE to do, because you aren’t cooking 21 meals a week for yourself. (And, since Christine works, I assume that she is not either.)
Tipping is a part of the experience of dining out. It is simply what you do. Waiters here are paid only a few dollars an hour in most states (think along the lines of $3 or $4). They are paid so little because of the custom of tipping. If you don’t like tipping, I suggest that you move to England, where servers are paid more and tipping is not common.
Moving on, I did not intend to make it sound like I honestly believe that going to college has no effect on your income. I never said that. I simply said that going to college (for a four-year degree, at a “real” university) does not automatically translate into big bucks. And, all of the friends that I mentioned went to “real” schools. Y9ou guys may try to dismiss what I say because you feel it’s typical of people with what you feel is a poor education. I may not have finished a degree at a university, but no one I know would say I am uneducated. And if I were to observe that going to college was the only way I’d be able to support myself, perhaps I would have stuck it out. Alas, I have been supporting myself just fine. I am ambitious, and I work hard. Though this work ethic may eventually take me back to school, I only expect that it will, at the very least, keep a roof over my head. It has been working fine so far.
The last thing I’ll say before ending this comment, is that people are worth more than how much money they make. There are different ways to measure the worth of a person and, more importantly, their wisdom or knowledge. If I were to snap my fingers and remove from this country every “loser” who is “wasting their time” in some job that you don’t appreciate, I think you’d be saddened by how fast your world falls apart.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent pontificated
“Tipping is a part of the experience of dining out. It is simply what you do.‘
My friends say the same thing about puking after an evening of drinking, but I don’t really believe it’s a required part of the experience.
Come on, Chaim, don’t be a “Debbie Downer” on a Friday, man. You’re getting all serious and morally superior on us, dude. Let’s put the post in its proper perspective — do you or do you not want to see pictures of Christine’s boobs??
Christine the Lioness uttered
“If you don’t like tipping, I suggest that you move to England, where servers are paid more and tipping is not common.”
OR… the waiters could move to England instead of whining about how the customer should be obligated to step up and do what their employer should be doing.
“I may not have finished a degree at a university, but no one I know would say I am uneducated.”
But if you applied for a job and I looked at your resume (me– someone who doesn’t know you) and it said you didn’t get a degree, then it’s hard for me to assume you’re somehow highly “self” educated when I can look at the resume of someone else who does have a degree and know they made it through 4 years of higher education. Again, this is an example of creating your own bullshit so that you can be at the same level as other people when truthfully, they committed to four years of schooling and tuition debt that you didn’t. If the people who did that tend to get more respect or labeled “more educated,” then tough. They are more educated. Period. I’m not saying they’re smarter, or better people, or anything like that… but they are, indeed, more educated. And while there are more ways to measure a person’s wisdom… dedicating yourself to earning a degree at an accredited 4 year college is a pretty damn good one.
And like PJ alluded to… tipping is not a required part of the experience. I do tip and after reading all these comments regarding tips on all our posts, the truth is… I’m not sure why I do it. I really only do it so the waiter won’t think I’m cheap. Which I realize is funny because I typically don’t care a whole lot about what other people think of me… I care a little more than Christopher, but I think the whole tipping thing has been engrained into our heads because employers don’t really want to have to pay their food service employees. Not because “it’s simply what you do.”
Guys… I’m not showing you my boobs Friday or no friday…
Trouble the Pirate quibbed this
Arrrrggggghhhh! THATS the final straw! I’m outta here…
‘Skwaaaak!’ […Parrot says he’s leaving too]
ProphetJoe the Irreverent uttered
I’m going too!
Damn it, Chris (either one of you). All you had to do was find one decent porno picture of a blonde babe with heavy hangers, then crop the face out the picture and claim it was her, but can you do that ONE little thing for your faithful fans… NO!
I am so disappointed in the 2 of you! — don’t expect a tip from me this time!!
SKwaaaak! [I thought they had already left]
Christopher the Pyro hunt n' pecked this
“If you are unable to feel superior to most other people unless you forgo tipping someone who works an exhausting and thankless job, then there’s really nothing I can say to you to change your mind.”
That is the stupidest thing I’ve read today… ok first.. all jobs are thankless, second they are all exhausting, third I do not feel superior until someone feels the need to point to a tip club implying the deserve money for doing their job and then I realize what a worthless fuck they are.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent pontificated
OK, I’m back
The bottom line is this: Tips should NEVER be solicited!
Chaim the Groupie commented
Okay, so, at least we can all agree that soliciting tips is out of line.
Chris: Some jobs are more exhausting than others. Some jobs are more thankless than others. To claim otherwise is to completely invalidate the job-superiority hierarchy that you seem to put so much stock in.
Christine: If we define educated as being learning at a university, and measure education by hours and dollars spent, then, obviously, I am not very educated. However, to equate this type of education with wisdom is simple foolishness. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one-another.
Christine the Lioness chimed in with
The point is, Chaim, is that when it comes to getting a job, in this country, we use a tool called a resume. We don’t sit with candidates for hours and test them to find out how wise they are, we don’t converse with them for days and have philosophical discussions. ON A RESUME, we can see if you had the dedication and drive to stick it out and get a degree. The fact that someone could see that earning a degree is a potentially wise choice that can show someone on a RESUME their dedication to educating themselves, is somewhat wise in and of itself. I don’t think anyone cares about how wise you are… if I’m hiring someone to do a job, I want as many indicators to be present as possible that they’re going to be capable of doing that job and succeeding. So I’m not sure why you keep harping on wisdom… it’s somewhat irrelevant, especially if it’s not something you can show about yourself on a piece of paper. Sure, it could come off in an interview, but you may never get to the interview without a good resume.
In addition, I also know people who are college grads and those who aren’t. There are of course exceptions, but for the most part, the people I know who graduated from college are much more “wise” than those who didn’t. Why? Because people who typically value education and learning see a reason to go to college and those who don’t value learning, don’t. Very few skip college so that they can go educate themselves. They simply don’t care for the most part.
And on top of that… I’m not sure why someone with such incredible wisdom would then choose to do something that’s not mentally stimulating or challenging like… oh… pouring coffee day in and day out. Particularly if they could make much more money doing something more interesting. If a job is SO exhausting and SO thankless, wouldn’t they want to get one that is so much easier and pays more if they could? Hrmmm…. what was that about wisdom and intelligence?
And your idea that some jobs are more exhausting than others or more thankless than others isn’t really true. Some are more physically exhausting than others, but your body adapts to that anyway. What does it mean to be more “thankless?” I’d think someone who gets a tips from even one out of ten customers is getting “thanked” much more than I am working a job where I don’t get tips.
Christopher the Pyro stated
I would also point out that the most physically demanding, most dangerous, jobs, construction, farming, sewer work, military, generally have low pay.. yet we aren’t tipping these people… and their jobs have far more risk of serious injury, illness, death then.. say.. the guy who parks my car…
Chaim the Groupie pontificated
Christine: I’ll try to ignore the condescending tone that permeates your latest response.
I do understand what a resume is. Never once have I suggested that I can get a job you need to go to college for without having a degree. To suggest otherwise is asinine. I am not an idiot, even though I work as a bartender. I know what college is. I kknow what people do there. I know what sorts of jobs you need to go to college for.
People who work at Starbucks, other coffee places, restaurants, etc, are not doing so as a career. That is not a career. Some of them might be doing it because they are losers with no ambition and care about nothing in life, but I doubt that is the majority. Some of them are students. Some of them are artists, musicians, writers, actors. Some of them might be mothers trying to make ends meet. Your lack of respect of other people is appauling. Why must you two judge the worth of a person according to what sort of job they work? It’s a job. It has nothing to do with the “worth” of a person.
I am glad you are so happy you went to college. I’m glad it was a good decision for you because it enabled you to do the things you wanted to do. I actually and very happy with my decision to not go. It enabled me to do some of the things I wanted to do. There are still a few things I’d like to do that college will make rather inconvenient. And, guess what, as soon as going to college is going to help me get to where I want to be, I’ll go!
Chris: Those jobs you listed don’t require much education. Are the people who work at them losers, too? Explain.
Christopher the Pyro mentioned
I wasn’t arguing if any of these people are idiots… I dealt with one idiot at a starbucks, however i would say that nobody deserves a tip. Period. My point was if I don’t get tipped if people with far more dangerous and difficult jobs then I have (jobs listed above) don’t get tipped then a bartender or valet shouldn’t get tipped. The above jobs were showing simply that there are dangerous, difficult jobs that are low paying that do not have tips.
Christine the Lioness uttered
Chaim, you need to actually read what people are saying instead of putting words in their mouths and accusing them of saying something they didn’t. I never once said that people who work as bartenders are not “worth” as much as someone who does something else. You are sort of trying to muddle the argument here because your points don’t really stand on their own.
Let’s try looking at facts:
You said that working in food service is a highly stressful, thankless job and therefore the people who do it deserve to be tipped. My point was that there are much more stressful, more thankless jobs that don’t receive tips. I can name about 50 more stressful jobs than bartending or waiting tables (and I’ve done both of those jobs so I know what I’m talking about). I can also name more thankless jobs. The fact that you think pouring coffee is stressful and thankless means nothing. It certainly doesn’t mean everyone should tip baristas. If our basis for tipping people is the fact that their job is stressful, then we should be tipping heart surgeons instead. We should be tipping stock brokers. We should be tipping ambulance drivers. If that’s why we tip, then all those people deserve tips more than baristas and bartenders. And since we don’t tip those people… that tells me that having a stressful job has NOTHING to do with who gets tipped and who doesn’t. So please stop trying to connect things that simply don’t connect. You have yet to come up with a good argument as to why we should tip baristas. Instead, you’ve tried to accuse Christopher and I of being condescending and elitist, you’ve tried to convince us that they deserve tips because they are “wise” people, you’ve tried to convince us that they should get tips because their job is stressful and thankless, you’ve tried to convince us that these people become exhausted from their work and deserve tips because of that, you even tried to suggest that people with degrees make less than people without degrees because your friends who went to college are earning less than you are as a bartender with no degree. Every single thing you came up with is completely irrelevant and does not support why baristas should be tipped. Period. Maybe that sounds condescending, but seriously… stop going in circles, come up with a halfway decent argument and you’ll get a much less condescending response from me.
Chaim the Groupie got all philosophical
Christine,
I never said that people deserve to be tipped because they work in a thankless job. In fact, I outlined the reasons for tipping in a previous response. It has nothing to do with being thankless. Bartenders and waitresses get tipped. They also happen to work jobs that are stressful. I never made a connection between the two. Yes, there are jobs more stressful than a food service job. However, servers in restaurants are paid very little by their employers because they get tipped. Being tipped is a part of their pay. In turn, servers must pay out a portion of their tips to busboys and food runners and bartenders, who are also paid very little. In turn, the tips are part of their pay. It is part of the experience of ebing waited on. No, it is not the law, but it should be factored in to your dining out budget. if you get terrible service, no one is forcing you to tip anyone. However, get into the habit of not tipping at your favorite restaurant, and see how fast your service suffers. If this is how you want to live your life, that is your choice. Tipping is you paying your server. if you want servers to work for free, well… that’s a whole other argument.
I never said that baristas at Starbucks should be tipped. I never said this once. A discussion of tipping came forth out of this thread, but I never once argued that baristas should be tipped. It is certainly not something that is encouraged or expected in the same way as tipping a waiter or a server. You can even refer back to my first comment, in which I said: “I am not sure that I agree with the barista that tipping is customary for a cup of coffee poured. Technically there is no such custom for counter or any kind of take-out service. Had he been waiting on you at a table, it would have been a different matter.”
I never said that servers and bartender should be tipped because they are wise. That would be a ridiculous thing to say. In fact, I never even said that they are wise. They are no more likely to be wise than any other person on Earth. A server might be wise. A lawyer might be wise. A policeman might be wise.
I never said that people who get degrees make less that people without them. That would be ridiculous. I never said that, and never would. I am not an idiot, though you clearly seem to think I am. All that I said was that one does not necessarily get rewarded with a $50k a year job once they complete a 4-year degree. I said that one does not necessarily have to go to college to make more than someone who does not go to college. I was trying to say there are other ways to succeed and barometers for success. I pointed out that I make more than most of my friends who graduated college. This was not me saying that they are suckers, or that I am better. This is not me saying that I make more BECAUSE I went to college. I was solely using it as an illustration of what I was trying to communicate. Obviously, if it were clear to me that I’d be cold and homeless unless I finished a degree, I would have done that a long time ago.
You say I am putting words in your mouth and skirting the issues, but it really seems to be the other way around.
Frankly, I think this argument has become so fragmented that any real points we were debating have been lost.
Chris: I didn’t think you were arguing that those people were idiots. I never said that you were. I understand what you were trying to say. (Which was: Why don’t we tip them?) I had gathered from previous comments and previous posts that perhaps you feel that jobs that require little education are worthless. I was truing to understand why you would come to the defense to the jobs you mentioned if they would fall into that same category. If you do not feel those jobs are worthless, what makes that no-education job different from a job in a restaurant or behind a bar? (also, I would like to add that though the jobs you mentioned are low-paying, those folks all make a fortune compared to the base pay of a server or bartender, who are paid so little because tips are part of their income.
Trouble the Pirate quibbed this
Firstly, Chaim, welcome to CVC.
I feel you are making a fairly good argument with the side of the subject matter you are supporting, and considering who you are rebutting. I am in fact inclined to agree with much of your opinion, having had much similar experience.
However, as you are a groupie here, I want to point out a few things to you, and please don’t take it as condescending because my motivation is merely to reinforce some concepts that I suspect you may already be aware of. Please take into consideration the following:
1) Chris vs Chris is a MOSTLY humorous site, although at times we may have discussions that might actually be considered worthwhile in some twisted alter-dimension, we try to avert any would-be strangulations by bombarding the thread with sexual-innuendo and references to Christine’s ample boobs […for help with this, feel free to email PJ.]
2) CvC is a gauntlet of sorts that must be run. It is a free-forum, commenters are free to share any opinion, and with this freedom comes the potential for being met with oodles of condescending retribution. Many come here and if they’re the type to be easily offended, they quickly leave with feathers generously ruffled.
3) They are never missed. If you can dish it out, you better be able to take it, and if you can take it, then you are the type who will fit in here. Just look at PJ… No-one gets more [deserved] abuse than he, and yet he still keeps coming back for more like a cracked-out David Copperfield.
4) Chris is an abrasive, heartless and extremely condescending person… Deep-down he is sweet, caring, thoughtful, empathetic and a general all-round 
… But Christine is the only person who gets to see that side of him, and we are all much better off for this small mercy, trust me.
5) Christine is not your typical big-breasted, blond bimbo… Well, she is a big-breasted blond… But no bimbo… And not typical. She has paid her dues, and does not argue a point that she is not either experienced or at least familiar with.
Kudos for taking the time to do a little research by reading the waitress post, that is the kind of attitude that works well here. Rest assured, Both Chris and Christine do see your points, people our age do not argue to prove how smart we are, or to change other peoples’ opinions… We are far too jaded and cynical for that.
That being said, you are ALL being condescending… It began with Christopher as would be expected and has continued to escalate since. So don’t feel justified making a statement like “Christine: I’ll try to ignore the condescending tone that permeates your latest response.” when you have said things like “If you are unable to feel superior to most other people unless you forgo tipping” and “If you don’t like tipping, I suggest that you move to England” prior… Without the benefit of your tone and body-language, these statements can be taken as quite condescending on their own merit. Chris does not need to forgo tipping to feel superior… He naturally feels superior, he forgoes tipping ’cause he’s a cheap bastard…
Also, neither of them would ever move to England ’cause they would rather let their own blood onto the American flag to keep the stripes red if need be, and not tipping is an option that Chris has every right to under your constitution, he also has the right to deal with the consequences like bad service or the occasional tuft of crab-infested pubic hair buried deep in his mashed potatoes…
So let’s all stop being so defensive and try to keep this uncharacteristically civil, before I gotta go all pirate, and cudgel someone…
Now here are my [condescending] points:
1) Artificial Intelligence has already been achieved… They’re called College graduates…
2) Tips should never be solicited… However, if I tip a cute Barista, I hope to get solicited…
3) Starbucks does in fact suckle at the unholy teat of corporate America, growing fat on the milk of rampant capitalism, and burying the small independent coffee shops in its rancid feces.
4) Diners began tipping a long time ago as a means of expressing pleasure with great service. Restaurant owners saw this as an opportunity to reduce their overheads and maximize their profits by cutting wages, as a result the service industry has probably the lowest paid base wages of any, some people working in that industry rely heavily on tips just to make ends meet, and yet others can afford extravagant lifestyles based on the same principle. It is now governed more by where and when you work, than how diligent or exemplary one is at one’s job.
5) Growing up, I remember my parents giving each of the garbage-men a bottle of wine and an envelope with a thank-you note and a hundred bucks at x-mas each year, keeping 20 bucks at hand whenever we traveled for tipping porters and door-men, and always calculating 15% for the waitress at restaurants. I saw it as their way of showing their appreciation to these people for ’serving’ them and doing tasks that were necessary yet unenviable, and added something extra to their lives and experiences.
6) I’ve worked many years in the service industry, and I can say that mixing 200 drinks an hour so that a bunch of drunken, unappreciative ass-collars can spew saliva in your face, smash glassware all over the floor, dance like a troupe of retarded gibbons, have a good time and possibly get laid, all while you know that you have to stay an hour after closing time to clean up, and your only chance at a piece of ass is the fat-chick with the lazy eye falling off her stool at the end of the bar… Is very stressful indeed, and the dollar they throw at the jar is sometimes the only thing that keeps you coming back for more.
7) What I refer to as my ‘real’ job, is just as stressful, and requires just as much responsibility. Although I am paid extremely well, I have yet to make in a year what I made bartending when those times were good, and I only went after this career ’cause my mom guilted me into it, saying that bartending had no future for me, and wasn’t a respectable career. Hmmm, it was nice to take that kind of money to the bank back then though, and being able to pop 4 bottles of Crystal when some friends announced their engagement without batting an eyelid and paying cash from my ‘pimp-roll’ not only felt good… But got me laid by the girl standing at the bar next to me when I did… Shallow bitch… Little did she know…
My little brother has a double masters degree, and will one day make much more than I will, and hopefully lead a much more comfortable, and less stressful life than I have thus far… But for now he is just a pleb, is far less traveled, barely makes his student loan and has missed out on many life-experiences that I’ve been lucky enough to have, and hence requires my experience and assistance on a weekly basis.
9) I am not a proponent of dropping out of school in the misguided hopes of striking it rich like Bill Gates, thinking the world owes you a living or that he got where he did by dumb luck… He did it by hard-work, determination, seizing every opportunity, stabbing his friends in the back, lying, cheating, stealing and generally duping the modern world. Not all of us can achieve that.
10) I believe that all the traditional education systems are greatly flawed, memorization of old ideas, and regurgitation of predeveloped concepts plays too heavy a role, more concentration must be on teaching our tried-and-true concepts as law, and allowing children to elaborate on, run with and develop these concepts, then maybe one day we will land a man on the moon.
11) Soliciting a tip is begging… At least when the homeless guy tells you his life-story he is working to stretch your entertainment dollar… A jar with ‘Tips’ scribbled in barely legible red-Sharpi is just plain lazy. Drawing attention to that jar is down-right presumptuous, and should be met with the required scorn and derision…
12) We would all do well to be more considerate of our fellow human beings, it may not earn us any merit in this life, but on the off-chance we have to come back…
Christine the Lioness asserted
Trouble “gets it.” Not a surprise…
Here’s what I find most interesting about Trouble (other than that he shares the same overly confident, alpha-male tendencies that I find so attractive and endearing my very own Christopher)… he comes the site, doesn’t say a damn thing forever, observes where everyone else is coming from, then forms a rather succinct, difficult-to-argue-with response that addresses every aspect of everyone else’s comments… it’s a very different approach than say, PJ (who consistently thinks of more to say after he’s pressed the submit button and has a knack of working in some sort of reference to lesbian sex or my boobs), or Mara (who breaks down an argument and attacks it sentence by sentence in the way a legal mind should)… or Christopher (usually relying on his overall superiority and very sharp tongue to intimidate others into giving up) or myself (I tend to rely often on sarcasm peppered with well-thought out Aristotelian arguments and syllogism… although sometimes there’s a bit of emotion thrown in)…
I will say this, Chaim… Trouble is right. Our site has probably offended more people than it hasn’t… so if you’re welcome to hang out here with us… but don’t dish it out if you can’t take it… and you will definitely need to have a sense of humor… given that, you may be the first left-wing extremist who actually stays…
And btw Trouble… I highly doubt your only chance of getting laid was with the inebriated fat chick with the lazy eye… but I do appreciate your taking poetic license for the purposes of increasing the entertainment value of the site…
Christine the Lioness got all philosophical
I did want to point out one more thing about people who work in the service industry and feel like everyone should tip (I used to be one of these people as well)…
I find it very, very interesting that food-service employees can be paid pennies (literally less than minimum wage) by their employers and then somehow defend to the world that it’s not the employer who should be responsible for paying them a decent salary… it’s the public who should make sure these waiters make a decent salary even though the public is already getting fucked by the establishment owner when they pay $90 for two dinners that cost about $12 to prepare. It’s almost a version of Stockholm syndrome…
Someone wants to hire you to work in their business, pay you next to nothing and force you to rely on the generosity of their customers, so that they can, as Trouble so eloquently put it, can use capitalism and the tradition of tipping for superior service to fatten their own pocket books, and yet servers find absolutely nothing wrong with borderline exploitation and instead aim their frustration on the customer who does not tip even though there are no laws or real obligation even for the customer to do… In EVERY OTHER industry, the employee relies on the employer to pay him a fair wage and a consistent wage he can count on. The employer actually builds in the cost of paying his employee a fair wage into the price of the product he sells… Restaurant and bar owners build in their profit and then leave their employees’ take up to the generosity or lack of generosity of the customers… that’s kinda fucked up. And yet it seems that most food servers don’t have a problem with THAT at all… The expectation to pay a fair wage really should lie in the lap of the establishment owner… it’s part of the price of running a business– any business. Or at least should be imho.
Chaim the Groupie got all philosophical
Trouble: Thanks for ducking into this discussion. I think a calm, reasoned extra voice in all of this was just what was needed.
I did realize after I mentioned that Christine was being condescending that I’m guilty of the same thing through much of this thread. I didn’t feel like mentioning it strengthened my case, though
Christine: What gave you the idea that I am a left-wing extremist?
For what it’s worth, I agree that it would be a better and more fair system for everyone if I were paid in the from of a wage from my employer rather than by my customers. But I’m not. It’s a system that’s not going to change. (It would certainly take some stress out of my life to know precisely how much money I am going to make in any given week.)
But there are benefits to the tipping system that should nto be ignored. Firstly, it actually puts the worker in some control over how much they make. What I mean is, in general, the better you are at your job, the more money you are going to make over-all. How well you work on any given night can have a big effect on what you walk home with at the end of the day. This is good for the owner, but it’s also very good for the customer, because they are getting better service out of it. If a server knows they are making the same money no matter what they do, they are less apt to bend over backwards than if they know their pay is coming directly from the person they are serving.
But, the ones who make this point are correct: No one is forcing anyone to tip. It’s not the law, and you don’t have to do it I just happen to think it’s better to, particularly if you are in the habit of eating out.
I actually like that Chris talks about why he doesn’t tip. There are times when someone walks out without tipping, and most of us just want to knwo the reason. Was the service bad? Is this person broke? Do they just not believe in tipping? I have had people give me one of these or other answers before they stiff me on the tip, and believe it or not, I appreciate it, because at least that are acknowledging that I exist and that I might care whether or not I am tipped. They are taking the time to communicate with me, which is perhaps even more considerate than the tipping itself.
Christopher the Pyro commented
“It’s a system that’s not going to change.”
It won’t change over night.. and it won’t change if we think it won’t.. but if people just stop tipping things do change. That’s just how it is.. what is the average price for a CD compared to 6 years ago? It’s less…. why people would rather steal the music than pay $22 for the CD.. so now the CD is $12.. the same concept could work with tipping.
I generally came up with a $5 tipping rule.. regardless of how much the food is.. why because the lady at my favorite diner who is getting tipped 50% on the $10 meal worked as hard as the person at Saddle Peak who would be getting like 3% on the $100 meal.. they both brought me a drink, and an en tree.. (of course.. I’m only getting raped on the mood at one place).
Christine the Lioness added
“Firstly, it actually puts the worker in some control over how much they make. What I mean is, in general, the better you are at your job, the more money you are going to make over-all.”
That’s simply not true. I was a waitress. There were nights where a table I gave excellent service to, even hooked up with free coffee or dessert– didn’t tip for shit. Other times, I know I gave lousy service either because we were slammed or had to deal with a big party at one of my other tables and the people still tipped 25%. To believe you have some kind of control over it, suggests that everyone is going to tip you as long as you provide good service. That is just not the case. And it doesn’t benefit the owner either. The owner knows the people are going to pay for the food whether or not they tip the server. That’s all that really matters to him.
And quite frankly, it’s really none of your business why someone does or doesn’t tip. Of course I can understand why you’d like to know so that if you did something wrong you could try to improve on it, but they don’t owe you any kind of explanation. Likewise, a server shouldn’t assume they gave bad service if they don’t get a tip. I used to be really critical of myself when I’d get stiffed and wonder what I did wrong, but the truth is… I may or may not have done anything wrong… they could’ve just been the type of person who doesn’t tip. If you interview for an admin job and don’t get it, the interviewer doesn’t owe it to you to tell you why he didn’t hire you. He may or may not decide to say something, but if he doesn’t, then oh well. In addition, not everyone likes to have to tell a waiter that he gave shitty service or that they don’t have enough money to tip or they don’t believe in tipping… they just want to go out and eat in a restaurant and go home. They have every right to do that.
I agree with Christopher. The system CAN change. For example, if everyone stopped tipping tomorrow… let’s just say that happened… I would bet in a matter of a month, all the servers who are now walking out of work with $20 after working a five hour shift, would either quit or would demand their employers pay them more. Employers wouldn’t have a choice but to pay them more because no one is going to work for that low of a wage. Now… I realize that it can’t happen overnight. But look at the health insurance industry. Fifteen years ago, people were still selling insurance policies door to door, cold calling leads, etc. That form of selling is practically obsolete because of changes in the insurance industry and the use of telemarketing and the internet. Insurance salesmen eventually realized they couldn’t make money doing that anymore and changed to new lines of work. The same would happen if everyone stopped tipping. Over time the number of tippers would dwindle and waiters would say screw this… I can’t make enough here… either pay me more, boss, or I’m leaving. They leave. Boss finds it very difficult to hire people to replace him. The pool gets smaller and smaller because there’s suddenly no money in that line of work. Boss needs servers, so boss reluctantly ups the wage so he can hire again. It’s the natural progression of things.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent commented
“it’s a very different approach than say, PJ (who consistently thinks of more to say after he’s pressed the submit button and has a knack of working in some sort of reference to lesbian sex or my boobs)”
OUCH!
ProphetJoe the Irreverent mentioned
By the way, Christine, your tits are looking especially nice today.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent remarked
and you forgot to mention that I am the king of emoticon abuse!
Christine the Lioness remarked
I didn’t want to scare him away…
Trouble the Pirate added
Actually Miss Christine, you can’t say it “simply isn’t true” …it is to an extent. There are many ways to play the system without being dishonest. Remember that our economy here in the islands is highly ‘tourist driven.’
Over the years, I have tended bar in dive resorts, hotels, local-hangouts and also nightclubs, one of the later of which I was a part-owner for a couple of years. I have seen this from most sides.
While it is true that some people are predisposed NOT to tip for whatever reason, even the most stubborn fish can be tempted to bite given the right bait or circumstance. The waitstaff that has experience with different types of patron, can form ways of dealing with them to encourage tipping, rather than just accepting their fate.
My experience [roughly 15 years on-and-off] taught me a lot. Everyone has a ‘disposable amount’ that they take with them when they go out, it can be physical cash in their pocket, or a predetermined amount that they would willingly put on their plastic… Although they would be happier to keep to this budget or even happier to stay under, they can be convinced to even bust it if they like you. It is much harder for someone to stiff you if they feel a connection with you. The same reason it is easier to walk past the silent homeless guy with the cardboard sign and the scruffy beard, than it is the amiable fellow who greets you with a ‘good-morning’ and a hard-luck story.
It’s like fishing. When you cast your line, you are depending on a few variables beyond your control… Are there fish here, are they hungry, is it their feeding time? So to up your odds, you have to use specific baits, the correct size hook and the right casting technique for example.
Firstly, you can size up what type of spender a person is by what they order, the frazzled middle-aged guy at the head of the table of rambunctious kids and in-laws who lets everyone order whatever they want and then has the chicken for himself, is on a serious budget and it’s a special occasion like his anniversary, he’s calculating every entree and whether the few hundred bucks left on his Discover Card is going to cover his wife’s Rib-eye. This guy needs support, an innocuous comment about how great a dad he is to do something ’so special’ for his lovely family, can make him feel better about parting with the “back-up” twenty in his pocket as tip.
The same scenario, but replace his Levi’s & Fruit’a-the-loom T-shirt with a power-suit, and his kids & in-laws with a bunch of other guys in similar attire, and you have an Alpha-dog, possibly celebrating some trivial accomplishment at work… Make a couple inquires as to such, give him a chance to brag a bit, and follow up with a compliment, and he’ll most likely use tipping you to show all the guys what a hot-shot he is…
Dealing with patrons is like meeting up a large dog in an alleyway, he could be vicious, he could be a big-puppy, either way showing fear will get you mauled… Or at least a good leg-humping.
It’s a proven fact, men, or groups of men tip female waitstaff better, and female patrons tip guys better. In my club, I taught the staff to cooperate with each other, pick their targets, and play to each other’s strengths. A coordinated attack had better chance of ending in victory for all concerned, than an ‘every monkey on his own limb’ approach. I found that the ‘us against them’ attitude that it fostered, helped in their camaraderie and we had less interpersonal problems with staff.
I used to use a couple of ‘bait-girls’, who’d sit at my bar and chat with me until some guys came up to buy them a drink, then they’d order a ‘call or special’ and the guys would have to tip decent to avoid looking like broke-ass MF’s.
There are too many tricks to even get into here. But bottom line is that a ‘good’ server, can squeeze a decent tip out of just about anyone… There are as I’ve said exceptions, these are casualties of war that just bring down your average, but at least they’re good practice.
Trouble the Pirate penned this
Oh, and the system won’t change, ’cause for every poor bastard just scraping a living, there is one who knows how to play the system and milk it for every penny… As with any system, there are supporters, and detractors… And never the twain be pleased…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent stated
“But bottom line is that a ‘good’ server, can squeeze a decent tip out of just about anyone… There are as I’ve said exceptions, these are casualties of war that just bring down your average, but at least they’re good practice.”
See, Christopher, you’re not JUST a marketing guru. You’re an economic equalizer, bringing sense to Trouble’s scheming barroom shenanigans.
Trouble the Pirate added
Ps… Thank’e fer the loverly stroking Miss Christine… Of my ego I mean…
“And btw Trouble… I highly doubt your only chance of getting laid was with the inebriated fat chick with the lazy eye… but I do appreciate your taking poetic license for the purposes of increasing the entertainment value of the site…”
You’re so right… But I do have a propensity for fat chicks with lazy eyes…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent pontificated
Look at Trouble posting 2-3 times back-to-back like he was PJ or something…
Swkaaaaak [yer right bird, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery…]
I have a serious point to make, but I need to hit the Submit button first…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent scribbled
On a serious note, I do my fair share of hiring for a major university (a Big Ten school) and I’ve chaired 6-7 search committees in the last couple of years. Just for the record, these aren’t faculty positions. They are professional positions (typically technology professionals, in fact).
The “dirty little secret” (which is well known by most bosses/HR people) is that we read the cover letter, then we spend about 2-5 minutes on a person’s resume. That’s it. You’re LUCKY if you get 10 minutes of serious analysis. That sounds incredibly harsh, but it’s true. I can generally tell from the writing of the cover letter if the person is well educated, thoughtful and detail oriented BEFORE I even see the resume. And the fact of the matter is that poorly written cover letters are the one which result in a 2 minute review of the resume (if that). It’s the well-written letter which gets the scrutiny on the resume, and many times that’s because I’m looking to see if the date ranges are complete, if the tone and voice of the resume matches the cover letter (it seems some people have others write their cover letter for them — wouldn’t you have them write the resume too?? Not always… idiots), and if their experience meets our minimum requirements (you’d be surprised how many people apply to a job with a 4 year degree requirement who don’t have a degree!)
Anyway, Chaim, I’m not looking for wisdom (that’s why they pay ME the big bucks), I’m looking for training and experience in 2-3 pages of paper. THEN when I interview the candidates, I look for creativity, the ability to mesh with the team, professionalism, humor, etc. But it’s ALMOST always the written test (resume) which gets you in the door.
Christopher the Pyro said this
Big Ten School - ALRIGHT!
I’m ready for some football!
Trouble the Pirate hunt n' pecked this
Can’t argue with your logic PJ… And that’s what people who wish to work in the corporate world must deal with, it’s the game that they have to play, it’s the set of cogs that dictate the hierarchy… But not the be-all-end-all of the workforce.
What they don’t tell you in school could fill a text-book. There are many professions which steer well-clear of that system, and can provide you with a very decent living, the least of which is not bartending.
Many trades, which can be more than adequately learned at community college, can effect this. For example, here there is a huge banking industry [big surprise] and many of the schoolkids can’t wait to slap on a long-sleeve shirt & tie, and sit at a little desk counting out other people’s money, and getting a good deal on a car loan as a bank-teller. The base salary is about 10 bucks an hour, and 20 years of hard work, determination and the right training may eventually get you a position of branch manager making $30 per hour…
Conversely, the same 17 year old can slot right into an assistant journeyman’s position with a plumbing or electrical company, take some shit for a bit, and in 2 years be making $30 per hour as a licensed tradesman.
I have friends with their own plumbing companies now who make similar money to lawyers… And another guy I know who’s 38, making $6000+ a month hanging sheetrock.
The corporate world is fraught with cronyism, nepotism, elitism and a whole other bunch of ‘isms’. Some people chose [or are forced] to avoid it, and sometimes they’re better off. There’s nothing wrong with serving other peoples’ needs for a living, as a matter of fact, it is the backbone of commerce, and a hell of a lot more respectable than selling ‘dot coms’ or being in public office…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent hunt n' pecked this
Trouble — are you saying my profession is not respectable?? I, sir, am in higher education. There is no profession more noble than this! And, quite frankly, while there are good professors out there, at the high end administrative levels, it’s still all about money — cash flow and tuition rates, etc.
Seriously, though, I didn’t really think you were taking a pot shot at my profession — after all, YOU’RE A PIRATE!!
Trouble the Pirate uttered
…Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim… Gotta feed my parrot somehow…
Trouble the Pirate commented
Actually I was calling you an old cog
No, I have utmost respect for those in the profession of assisting others with their learning, hell, I even lost my virginity to my home ec. teacher… That’s how dedicated I am to that ideal…
Trouble the Pirate mentioned
He was real gentle like…
Christopher the Pyro mentioned
I can’t believe I got marked as spam on my own blog… WTF.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent got all philosophical
Shit — man, I don’t know which of the 2 comments above was funnier, but I shot diet pepsi out of my nose nonetheless…
Now, how do you remove snotty soda from your monitor and keyboard — I’ve got it, the dishwasher!
Christopher the Pyro spake, and sayeth
PJ what school do u work at?
ProphetJoe the Irreverent commented
The one which just retired “The Chief” as it mascot, oops, I mean honored symbol. Does that help? If not, then we’re located 2 hours straight south of Chicago…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent mentioned
But I don’t think I should explicitly mention the name here. This isn’t the most reputable blog…
Christine the Lioness asserted
Who the fuck drinks diet PEPSI still??? For someone who knows so much about history… you didn’t pay much attention to who won the cola wars…
I hear what you’re saying, Trouble about doing your own thing and starting your own company… but I gotta side with PJ. I’ve been in positions where I have to hire and if someone can give me an obvious reason to take their resume out of the stack of thirty (like, for example, they don’t have a degree), that resume hits the trash as fast as my fingers can drop it. It’s true that people who are motivated and ambitious can do almost anything — I truly believe that– and you certainly don’t need a degree to have those two qualities. But the reality is… I know lots of people making a lot of money… and very few are self-made millionaires that opted to start their own business instead of going to college.
And btw, babe… apologize for the comment about me acting like a “bitch” the other night… and that SPAM thing might not happen anymore. I have no idea why it’s blocking you as spam though… hrmmm… weird.
Mara the Peacemaker uttered
I can’t believe I missed this entire conversation. Where have I been? 
Christine the Lioness up'n wrote this
Yeah, Mara… geez… like planning a wedding and being a lawyer is more important than reading our Starfucks posts or something….
Mara the Peacemaker quibbed this
Lol, Christine. Well, you know I’m always game for anything remotely controversial…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent stated
“Who the fuck drinks diet PEPSI still??? For someone who knows so much about history… you didn’t pay much attention to who won the cola wars…”
Umm, I do… geez, for such a bright, talented and boobalicious Hollywood blonde bombshell, you don’t read very carefully!
Actually, Coke has had a “monopoly” in the State of Illinois for the past 10 years. They’ve had an exclusive contract for State locations, so Illinois football and basketball have been sponsored by Coke and the ONLY sodas you could buy on campus are Coca-cola brands… until next month that is.
Pepsi won the new contract and all of the red and white monstrosities (pop machines) will soon give way to the red white and blue of America’s best tasting carbonated beverage. Ironically, Pepsi HAD been the big sponsor of Illinois sports for many years because their local bottler is here. It was quite a sore subject in 1997 when Pepsi had to remove their signs from all of the campus locations.
Welcome back, Mara! I forgot you’re doing the whole wedding thing. When is the big day? Take my advise. If your mother or his mother is involved — elope. Not long after we returned from our honeymoon, my wife and I agreed we should have gone to the Islands and had one of those beach weddings (the packages were dirt cheap) and then just showed our families the pictures. My mother had passed before I was married, but my mother-in-law was intrusive enough for 2 women — geez, hours before the wedding she was changing our flower arrangements because she thought they didn’t look “quite right”. Not unusual for my mother-in-law. She doesn’t think my wife can do anything right…
(Btw, I was referring to wedding pictures, not honeymoon pictures — sorry, Trouble. Didn’t mean to get your hopes up!)
Trouble the Pirate spake, and sayeth
I resemble that last remark… But don’t flatter yourself, I would have photoshopped you out anyways. Ever since the whole Home Ec. incident, I’m not that into guys… 
Trouble the Pirate penned this
Miss Christine… Yes, starting your own company is an option and comes with its own set of risks, but I was more trying to point out that there are many well-paid career options that don’t rely heavily on the ‘cover letter/resume’ scenario.
That being said, I once hired a waitress ’cause her resume was printed over paper that was ‘water-marked’ with a picture of her serving shots in a minuscule school-girl’s outfit… Sheer genius I thought…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent mentioned
Ahem, Trouble… umm, I wasn’t implying you’d be interested in *me* from the honeymoon photos… I thought you’d be interested in my wife’s 42-DD breasts. Sorry, but she’s not fat and doesn’t have a lazy eye…
SQUAAAWWKKKK [ Watch out, parrot… that’s not his wooden leg!! ]
Trouble the Pirate hunt n' pecked this
Ha! I just shot Diet Pep… Er… I mean Diet Coke through my nose…
I also find it strange that no one has addressed the fact that Chris was paying “like.. 5 dollars for a cup of coffee”… This, even with California’s inflated Starbuck’s prices, could not be “for pouring me a cup of coffee?”… This is more like a Vente triple cinnamon, double shot half-skinny latte with a quadruple pump of mocha… A real man’s drink… That poor barista must’ve got carpal tunnel making that one…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent stated
SQUAAAWWWKKKK [ no foam ]
Mara the Peacemaker uttered
PJ, are you a parrot now? Did I miss something…
The date keeps changing and believe me, eloping has never been more prominent in my mind than it is now. It is slowly but surely turning into nothing short of a fiasco. But believe it or not, it’s HIM who wants the wedding, not me.
ProphetJoe the Irreverent pontificated
I am certainly NOT a parrot, madam!
But that pirate’s damned bird is flying around in here somewhere…
Christine the Lioness remarked
LOL, Mara. I was there for the whole parrot thing… and I’m not sure I fully understand it myself…
Sorry to hear the wedding is turning into nothing short of a fiasco… I really believe weddings should be fun and about whatever the couple wants– no one else’s opinion should really matter in it (unless someone else is paying for the wedding). I know it can be sort of difficult when the bride and groom don’t agree on certain fundamental things… like for example, when Christopher and I talked about someday getting married, I had to put my foot down when he suggested having Asian strippers at the reception. Yes, it’s true, it would entice people who don’t like weddings to come… but no one should be getting more attention than the bride.
Trouble the Pirate scribbled
Asian strippers? Great for Bar Mitzvahs, right Chaim? But everyone knows that for weddings, only Russian or Czech strippers will suffice… Unless it’s a Vegas wedding, at which any run-of-the-mill strippers will do.
Okay, time for a new post, it’s safe to say we tangented this one to death…
Christine the Lioness mentioned
Don’t worry… I believe Christopher has a new post coming very soon…
ProphetJoe the Irreverent thought this
“I had to put my foot down when he suggested having Asian strippers at the reception. Yes, it’s true, it would entice people who don’t like weddings to come… but no one should be getting more attention than the bride.”
The solution to that problem is rather obvious… have the bride be the stripper!
ProphetJoe the Irreverent pontificated
“Christopher: “What… are you fucking serious.. NOBODY goes to college to learn how to pour a cup of coffee.. unless their fucking retarded. Are you retarded?”
If my man Chris would have added “boy” to the end of that question, he would sound just like a Drill Instructor I know…
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